MAIB Report Red Falcon and Phoenix collision

Elessar

Well-known member
Joined
10 Jul 2003
Messages
9,967
Location
River Hamble
Visit site
I haven’t even read the report yet. Still.
A Ferry overtaking a dumb ass in a boat.
.

Tee hee amazing summary of a load of waffle. Made me smile.

Tee hee 2. Open goal for mobo criticism but as mobo suggested the mobo was wrong then criticising the mobo supported the mobo. Circular dilemma.
If I’d kept my trap shut I reckon Phoenix would have been crucified here.......
 

LittleSister

Well-known member
Joined
12 Nov 2007
Messages
17,840
Location
Me Norfolk/Suffolk border - Boat Deben & Southwold
Visit site
The ferry had very limited options for manoeuvre owing to all the small boats - especially the sailing boat on his port bow.

I disagree that the ferry had limited options to manoeuvre. Aside from all the other options, it could have slowed down to either avoid a close crossing, or to better assess the situation.

You say 'especially the sailing boat on the port bow', but isn't that just repeating the ferry crew's error? They had identified that there were numerous craft of potential concern towards the Calshot shore, erroneously decided they were not a hazard, then forgot to check again on that side to see if there was any change or their original assessment was correct, quite likely because they both became preoccupied with the sailing vessel to port.

I have to say that I think the MAIB report was too generous to the ferry crew about failing to spot the mobo after they'd turned. Sure there was bright, low sunshine from that general direction, but not so glaring that you can't see the mobo wake on the the CCTV, and even if it were so difficult to see in that direction, shouldn't that only require greater attention in that direction? (Can you imagine 'I didn't look in that direction because there was a fog bank so you couldn't see much' as a defence?)

All that said, an easily understandable (if not 'acceptable') situation on both craft.
 

LittleSister

Well-known member
Joined
12 Nov 2007
Messages
17,840
Location
Me Norfolk/Suffolk border - Boat Deben & Southwold
Visit site
We must all have had that moment early in our boating lives - particularly after a tack - when you find yourself in the path of a monster that has been coming up behind you and you haven’t looked round to see. We mostly get way with that first mistake . . .

I've been mostly getting away with that first mistake for years! ;)
 

lpdsn

New member
Joined
3 Apr 2009
Messages
5,467
Visit site
Cockcroft and Lameijer (rather an elderly copy now) tell us this:

"The term ‘narrow channel’ is not easily defined. In deciding whether a particular stretch of water is or is not a narrow channel the Courts take into account the evidence as to the way in which seamen usually navigate the locality and the advice given by the Elder Brethren. A narrow channel need not be of any particular length and does not necessarily terminate at the last of the buoys or objects marking the channel. The narrow channel rule has been held to apply to the passage between two piers and to 100 metres (yards) outwards beyond the objects marking a harbour entrance. It was held not to apply to a recommended route between two buoys where vessels could have gone outside them in safety. Passages approximately 2 miles wide have sometimes been considered narrow channels. In considering the passage between Duncansby Head and the Skerries in the Pentland Firth (Anna Salen-Thorshovdi, 1954) Mr Justice Willmer said: For myself, I certainly see difficulties in applying the ‘narrow channel’ rule to a passage which is nearly four miles wide. I should hardly have thought that ‘narrow’ was the word to use for this passage, for it is not a particularly narrow passage. In the Faith I-Zndependence (US Court, 1992) the passage between buoys at the entrance to Delaware Bay, approximately 1.2 miles wide, was held not to be a narrow channel but it was held that good seamanship and prudent navigation require that every vessel keep to starboard if safe and practicable. Rule 9 will apply to any narrow channel connected with the high seas which is navigable by seagoing vessels unless there is an inconsistent local rule. It does not apply to lanes of traffic separation schemes although such lanes may be relatively narrow."

The bit I've bolded seems to support both sides of the argument. :)

Not covinced by your interpretation of the bit in bold. No vessel can safely go outside pier heads, whereas there are various circumstances like this case where a vessel can safely go outside a buoyed channel.

Anyway, it's all rather mute. I'm sure they'd have avoided a collision if they'd seen each other. The fact that they didn't makes everything else merely academic.
 

Tomahawk

Well-known member
Joined
5 Sep 2010
Messages
19,151
Location
Where life is good
Visit site
Occurs to me that if the ferry had sounded 5 toots... I am concerned there is a risk of collision ... for the yacht on port...

The Phoenix might have looked over his shoulder....
 

Uricanejack

Well-known member
Joined
22 Oct 2012
Messages
3,750
Visit site
Well I have read the report now and I regret referring to the the skipper of the motor boat as a dumbass.
WTF.
The Dumb Ass was in charge of the Ferry. With a an Assistant Dumbass as the Mate.
Unfortunately it’s not the worst case of complacency and sheer negligence on the bridge of a ferry I have ever read but it’s pretty close.
Extremely fortunate no one lost thier life.

The Solent was certainly not a safe place with this operator running ferries in the area.
No recommendations. Quite surprising, although not unknown if the operator has instigated new SOP after the event which are considered sufficiently unacceptable. Still surprisingly little detail about those new SOP.

The standard of watch keeping on the Red Falcon was abysmally complacent beyond the point of being negligent. Well below any reasonable expectations of any professional certification anywhere.
AIS would have made no difference nobody was looking.

After having read the report I am not even sure which of the two dumbass’s had the conduct of the vessel
The traveling public and anyone else on the water would have been safer if the ferry had been crewed by a brand new day skipper and a competent crew

According to the report the crew of the vessel was 20.
Quite a large crew for a vessel of this sise
It appears to be a day boat with a lunch bucket crew operating two seperate shifts so there should have been no problem finding some one to be a lookout.
Would have been helpful to know what the actual crew make up is.

Bridge manning and crew sise on many comercial vessels is probably minimal compliance due to the comercial pressure of economics. This is a passenger ferry. Operating in busy confined waters. So one would normally expect better than minimum compliance.
With a vessel of this sise and a 360 all round view from the bridge.
In confined waters.
A 2 man bridge team would be considered bare minimum compliance. The chief Officer is both the QM and the Lookout possibly has the conduct of the vessel. The Master appears to be sitting on his arse doing sweet fa. Although he too may have the conduct of the vessel and might have been looking out.

The camera does show sunlight glare. In the direction the small power boat was.
Cameras are much more susceptible to glare than the average eyeball.
Clearly they never saw the power boat.
They didn’t even know they had hit the power boat until the purser told them.
Instead of stopping and checking to see if the vessel they had hit required assistance. They kept going. Again WTF.
This is despicable conduct. Thank god the boat didn’t sink and nobody died. It certainly wasn’t thanks to this pair.

They claim not to have believed they had hit another boat.
Who cares they didn’t check?
I believe strongly prosecutions do nothing to prevent accidents. I am a staunch supporter of the no blame approach to accident investigation carried out by the MAIB. Blame does nothing to prevent accidents.
Very occasionally an accident occurs wher the conduct or actions of an individual involved goes beyond what can be explained by an honest error of judgement. Or an Honest error of omission. To being a wilfully culpable.
In my opinion the Master of the Red Falcons actions fall so far below the normal expectations of the conduct of the Master or Officer of the watch to be culpable.
The action of the Master when he continued on the voyage after being informed there had been a colision with another vessel without checking to find out if assistance was required or reporting the incident. Was culpable criminal conduct.

I would support charges being filed against this guy.
Less so against the chief officer. It’s hard for a junior officer to speak up about the defficancies of the guy above him.
Though I have some doubt if he even realized what was out of order.
 

PilotWolf

Well-known member
Joined
19 Apr 2005
Messages
5,185
Location
Long Beach. CA.
Visit site
My company operates passenger only ferries at speeds slightly lower than the RedJets.

The understanding of the colregs or at least the apparent ignoring them occurs on a daily basis by leisure boaters, like this case. I'm not saying we're perfect by any means and a lot of captains will use our speed and manouverablity to avoid conflicts rather than. sticking to the rules - something I personally don't agree with. We only have 2 people on the bridge unless a deckhand has come to visit or in fog where some offer extra eyes.

All the vessels have 2 radars, AIS and 2 VHF, we have VTS and all captains have USCG radar observer certificates. People miss things when concentrating on other issues. Not saying this is acceptable but condeming a 2 man crew in a high work load is probably wrong.

All but one of our catarmans are jet drive so stop REALLY quick if you do a crash stop. I witnessed one on a coastguard inspection - it put everyone standing on their face, not something you'd want to do with passengers aboard.

The leisure boaters need to take some responsibility for their actions and learn basic rules of the road and seamanship.

I. cant believe after all those years in the Solent he wasn't aware of the ferries and their routes or the other shipping in the area.

I worked out of Southampton for about 5 years so know from experience the idiots there are there.

Based on the report even if he had VHF I doubt he'd been listening to VTS.

We constantly have people prepared to play chicken with 500 ton traveling at 30 kts on a known ferry route.
 
Last edited:

PilotWolf

Well-known member
Joined
19 Apr 2005
Messages
5,185
Location
Long Beach. CA.
Visit site
Well I have read the report now and I regret referring to the the skipper of the motor boat as a dumbass.
WTF.
The Dumb Ass was in charge of the Ferry. With a an Assistant Dumbass as the Mate.
Unfortunately it’s not the worst case of complacency and sheer negligence on the bridge of a ferry I have ever read but it’s pretty close.
Extremely fortunate no one lost thier life.

The Solent was certainly not a safe place with this operator running ferries in the area.
No recommendations. Quite surprising, although not unknown if the operator has instigated new SOP after the event which are considered sufficiently unacceptable. Still surprisingly little detail about those new SOP.

The standard of watch keeping on the Red Falcon was abysmally complacent beyond the point of being negligent. Well below any reasonable expectations of any professional certification anywhere.
AIS would have made no difference nobody was looking.

After having read the report I am not even sure which of the two dumbass’s had the conduct of the vessel
The traveling public and anyone else on the water would have been safer if the ferry had been crewed by a brand new day skipper and a competent crew

According to the report the crew of the vessel was 20.
Quite a large crew for a vessel of this sise
It appears to be a day boat with a lunch bucket crew operating two seperate shifts so there should have been no problem finding some one to be a lookout.
Would have been helpful to know what the actual crew make up is.

Bridge manning and crew sise on many comercial vessels is probably minimal compliance due to the comercial pressure of economics. This is a passenger ferry. Operating in busy confined waters. So one would normally expect better than minimum compliance.
With a vessel of this sise and a 360 all round view from the bridge.
In confined waters.
A 2 man bridge team would be considered bare minimum compliance. The chief Officer is both the QM and the Lookout possibly has the conduct of the vessel. The Master appears to be sitting on his arse doing sweet fa. Although he too may have the conduct of the vessel and might have been looking out.

The camera does show sunlight glare. In the direction the small power boat was.
Cameras are much more susceptible to glare than the average eyeball.
Clearly they never saw the power boat.
They didn’t even know they had hit the power boat until the purser told them.
Instead of stopping and checking to see if the vessel they had hit required assistance. They kept going. Again WTF.
This is despicable conduct. Thank god the boat didn’t sink and nobody died. It certainly wasn’t thanks to this pair.

They claim not to have believed they had hit another boat.
Who cares they didn’t check?
I believe strongly prosecutions do nothing to prevent accidents. I am a staunch supporter of the no blame approach to accident investigation carried out by the MAIB. Blame does nothing to prevent accidents.
Very occasionally an accident occurs wher the conduct or actions of an individual involved goes beyond what can be explained by an honest error of judgement. Or an Honest error of omission. To being a wilfully culpable.
In my opinion the Master of the Red Falcons actions fall so far below the normal expectations of the conduct of the Master or Officer of the watch to be culpable.
The action of the Master when he continued on the voyage after being informed there had been a colision with another vessel without checking to find out if assistance was required or reporting the incident. Was culpable criminal conduct.

I would support charges being filed against this guy.
Less so against the chief officer. It’s hard for a junior officer to speak up about the defficancies of the guy above him.
Though I have some doubt if he even realized what was out of order.

Can I respectful ask if you've ever operated commercially in the Solent?

W.
 

Uricanejack

Well-known member
Joined
22 Oct 2012
Messages
3,750
Visit site
Can I respectful ask if you've ever operated commercially in the Solent?

W.

Certainly,

Comercialy? No.
I have visited the Solent,Cowes, Portsmouth and a few other watering holes in the area briefly under sail. So long ago I wouldn’t consider myself knowledgeable about the area at all or in a position to give advice about the Solent.
Which is why my comments were restricted to the standard of watch keeping and the conduct of the Master after he was advised there had been a colision.
Which apply anywhere.
 
Last edited:

PilotWolf

Well-known member
Joined
19 Apr 2005
Messages
5,185
Location
Long Beach. CA.
Visit site
So I'd suggest you're not really in a position to comment. I haven't been there in 7 years so probably I'm not either but from memory of over 5 years of playground untrained idiots.

I've shown colleagues here screenshots of radar there and they can't believe it. I've been on scene commander for multiple WAFI/MOBO rescues, sometimes having to call 999 to get the message through due to the crap being shouted on VHF by lesuire boaters.

I will consider your comments regarding watch keeping and look out and won't comment about my company buy consider the view of me as one of a similar watch keeper. I maybe consider myself as one of the best due to those who I have previously worked for, I worked for the best and was educated by the best. I can't say that is true for others...

W.
 
Last edited:

Uricanejack

Well-known member
Joined
22 Oct 2012
Messages
3,750
Visit site
So I'd suggest you're not really in a position to comment. I haven't been there in 7 years so probably I'm not either but from memory of over 5 years of playground untrained idiots.

I've shown colleagues here screenshots of radar there and they can't believe it. I've been on scene commander for multiple WAFI rescues, sometimes having to call 999 to get the message through due to the crap being shouted on VHF by lesuire boaters.

W.

Perhalps not. I am just an old fart behind a computer screen with an opinion on the Internet.
Based only upon having read the MAIB report and come to my own conclusions from the limited information in the report.

Apperntly I have touched a nerve by referring to the 2 man bridge team as minimum compliance.
Which you are free to disagree with.
My opinion there was no dedicated lookout.

Is a 2 man Bridge team sufficient? Many vessels operate with a single person on watch. Depending upon where they are.

Forget the sise of the bridge team. I will stipulate a 2 man bridge team should be perfectly capable of keeping an effective look out on a vessel of this sise with a 360 view from the bridge. Even in the Solent which I have heard is often quite busy.

Look at the photo graph of the Bridge.
Where is the radar?
Where is the ECS?
Where is the Chief Officer? At the control consol steering.
Where is the Master? Sat on his ass on the far side of the bridge from the radar.
Who had the conduct?

Given the information in the report. Do you believe they were keeping an effective look out. To the standards you would normally expect? Of a professional bridge team?
I don’t. Far from it.

The hazards associated with small vessels who may or may not know the rules, further emphasize how far bellow generally expected standards they were.

So the little guy made some errors. He didn’t know any better. The two on the bridge of the ferry should have known better. If they knew better they should have acted better.
 
Last edited:

Tomahawk

Well-known member
Joined
5 Sep 2010
Messages
19,151
Location
Where life is good
Visit site
Is that relevent in terms of moral blame - you can't give way to someone you haven't seen so the root cause is still lack of proper lookout.

What occurs to me is that the master of the ferry should be very familiar with the behaviour of WAFI and PAFI types in the Solent and should have considered the possibility there might be someone hidden in the sunlight... and taken steps to make sure no one was about to get run down.

It’s a bit like looking under the genoa even when you think there is nothng there... only to find there is.
 

Frank Holden

Well-known member
Joined
23 Nov 2009
Messages
988
Location
Cruising in the Golfo Corcovado
Visit site
The 'little guy' should have known a lot better.... f'rinstance he should have been aware of the following...

'The leaflet included the following advice:
• Be alert. Keep a good lookout at all times, especially astern!
• Avoid crossing the bows of on-coming commercial traffic.
• Avoid ship channels when possible. Cross them quickly and at right angles.
• Recreational users of the port must familiarise themselves with, and observe, the COLREGS, Port of Southampton Bye-Laws and Local Notice to Mariners.
The leaflet also showed the recommended points for leisure craft to cross the Thorn channel. ABP’s Notice to Mariners No 02 of 2016 repeated that small vessels14 should cross the main shipping channels at right angles.'

He failed to tick a single box!

That said the ship's lookout was slack..... otherwise there would have been no collision...qed etc

Saturday afternoon on a fine summer's day, motoring into the low afternoon sun, both watchkeepers bolted to their seats... just take a look at the number of blind spots created by those window frames!!
One of them should have been on his feet.

And yes, I do have more than a little bit of pilotage experience in congested waters. The Solent? Last time I was watchkeeping thereabouts would have been just shy of 52 years ago...... doesn't mean I don't know what I am talking about.
 

Resolution

Well-known member
Joined
16 Feb 2006
Messages
3,473
Visit site
'The leaflet included the following advice:
• Be alert. Keep a good lookout at all times, especially astern!
• Avoid crossing the bows of on-coming commercial traffic.
Avoid ship channels when possible. Cross them quickly and at right angles.
• Recreational users of the port must familiarise themselves with, and observe, the COLREGS, Port of Southampton Bye-Laws and Local Notice to Mariners.
The leaflet also showed the recommended points for leisure craft to cross the Thorn channel. ABP’s Notice to Mariners No 02 of 2016 repeated that small vessels14 should cross the main shipping channels at right angles.'

Despite sailing in the Solent for thirty years I am not aware of having ever seen this leaflet. The advice (instruction?) about crossing "ship channels" at right angles worries me. How many of us actually do that? For example when careful lookout shows there are not any ships around?
 
Last edited:

Blue Sunray

Well-known member
Joined
20 Jul 2015
Messages
2,424
Visit site
The MAIB don’t care who is to blame and do not apportion blame.
I haven’t even read the report yet. Still.
A Ferry overtaking a dumb ass in a boat.
The ferry hasn’t got a leg to stand on and four out of five fingers will be pointing backwards.

+1
 

bedouin

Well-known member
Joined
16 May 2001
Messages
32,360
Visit site
Occurs to me that if the ferry had sounded 5 toots... I am concerned there is a risk of collision ... for the yacht on port...

The Phoenix might have looked over his shoulder....
There is nothing in the MAIB report to suggest that the skipper of Phoenix would have known what it meant.
 

Uricanejack

Well-known member
Joined
22 Oct 2012
Messages
3,750
Visit site
Uricane Jack now regrets calling the mobo Skipper a dumbass:

"Well I have read the report now and I regret referring to the the skipper of the motor boat as a dumbass.
WTF.
The Dumb Ass was in charge of the Ferry. With a an Assistant Dumbass as the Mate."


Richard

Yes I do.
After reading the report. The Red Funnel Ferry was a just a hazard to navigation.
 
Top