Lithium Positive and Negative Insurers

[lustyd]

As Paul once asked, in a battery with LiFePO4 chemistry, where would the H be coming from? If it’s water, theres a vanishingly small quantity in there these days.

 

[PaulRainbow]

You're just posting irrelevant and misleading nonsense now.

It also applies to boats being placed on the market for the first time, so any that are being imported.

Does that make a difference to LFP installs ?

LFP do emit explosive gases under thermal runaway

If the system is properly designed and installed there won't be any thermal runaway. Do you have any links of LFP suffering thermal runaway on a boat ?

- and the requirement for a sealed but ventilated container is now also in the MCA requirements.

Again, leisure boats are not subject to MCA requirements.

 

[Sea Change]

As Paul once asked, in a battery with LiFePO4 chemistry, where would the H be coming from? If it’s water, theres a vanishingly small quantity in there these days.

A few weeks ago somebody posted a paper about a study on this. LiFePO4 did outgas a fair bit of H2 but only at very high temperatures.

 

[PaulRainbow]

They are for major changes.
Some people seem to feel that LA --> Li is a "major craft conversion" under s43(2)(a) of the regs.

Major craft conversion is defined as:
“major craft conversion” means a conversion of a watercraft which—
(a)changes the means of propulsion of the watercraft;
(b)involves a major engine modification; or
(c)alters the watercraft to such an extent that it may not meet the applicable essential requirements;

I'm not convinced it is - except that if you did it badly, it wouldn't meet the vague electrical requirements in the directive...

Yes, you are correct, technically reassessment is needed for "major craft conversions". I don't think changing the domestic batteries from LA to LFP constitutes a major conversion.

 

[lustyd]

Yes, you are correct, technically reassessment is needed for "major craft conversions". I don't think changing the domestic batteries from LA to LFP constitutes a major conversion.

For what purpose though? Unless the boat is being sold (by a business) or imported why would anyone care? I know you said technically so perhaps you thought so too?

 

[lustyd]

A few weeks ago somebody posted a paper about a study on this. LiFePO4 did outgas a fair bit of H2 but only at very high temperatures.

I don’t think it said a fair bit, it said some. The hydrogen must come from somewhere and it it’s from water there isn’t really enough in there to become very dangerous even if the bizarre artificial conditions were somehow made to happen on a boat.

 

[PaulRainbow]

For what purpose though? Unless the boat is being sold (by a business) or imported why would anyone care? I know you said technically so perhaps you thought so too?

Technically, yes, but what private owner of a used boat would do so ? How would the RCD/RCR police know if he didn't ?

Besides, it's nonsense to suggest that swapping LA for LFP is a "major craft conversion", IMO.

 

[Lewis_56]

Navigators & General requires "any papers to show that the work has been inspected and signed off by a qualified electrical engineer?"

They have a lithium ion policy on there website but no mention of phosphate. They said any LFP batteries installed by a "professional" will need a CE mark.

I didn't bother asking anymore questions.


Pantaenius have not changed their policy and require sign off for DIY install.

 

[Pye_End]

I don’t think it said a fair bit, it said some. The hydrogen must come from somewhere and it it’s from water there isn’t really enough in there to become very dangerous even if the bizarre artificial conditions were somehow made to happen on a boat.

From the components.

'For LFP at 100% in air (see Fig. 13), on average, the major component of the off-gas is H2 (36%), then CO (25%), CO (12%) and THC (11%).'

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352152X24008739

 

[PaulRainbow]

Navigators & General requires "any papers to show that the work has been inspected and signed off by a qualified electrical engineer?"

They have a lithium ion policy on there website but no mention of phosphate. They said any LFP batteries installed by a "professional" will need a CE mark.

I didn't bother asking anymore questions.


Pantaenius have not changed their policy and require sign off for DIY install.

If you were an insurance company and you read some of the things posted in this and other threads about LFP, would you insure DIY installs ?

 

[Sea Change]

If you were an insurance company and you read some of the things posted in this and other threads about LFP, would you insure DIY installs ?

This forum is a veritable gold standard compared to what you see on some of the Facebook groups.

 

[dunedin]

Yes, you are correct, technically reassessment is needed for "major craft conversions". I don't think changing the domestic batteries from LA to LFP constitutes a major conversion.

What constitutes a “major” change is (other than engine changes) a grey area.
Perhaps not helped by some such as British Marine and our PBO hosts who published an article which lists LA to LFP as a example of the type of change which “could” require reassessment - thanks PBO :-(. Boat certification: Do I need my vessel re-certified? - Practical Boat Owner

 

[PaulRainbow]

What constitutes a “major” change is (other than engine changes) a grey area.
Perhaps not helped by some such as British Marine and our PBO hosts who published an article which lists LA to LFP as a example of the type of change which “could” require reassessment - thanks PBO :-(. Boat certification: Do I need my vessel re-certified? - Practical Boat Owner

That article is just a surveyors opinion and my opinion is much of it is nonsense. I had to laugh at the last bit, where he doesn't have to worry about RCD/RCR when he changed his engine and took the gas out and fitted a diesel hob, because of his boats age. If those are something that are considered major conversions, normally requiring reassessment, he still needs to notify his insurance, i wonder if he did.

 

[mjcp]

Navigators & General requires [snip]

[/snip] They said any LFP batteries installed by a "professional" will need a CE mark.

CE mark is irrelevant - it simply means the manufacturer has written some paperwork, attesting compliance with some standards (which they may or may not have even tested against!). Its a requirement in order to sell products in the EU, but is not a quality standard or other compatibility statement.

It does not mean it will work with any other system you connect it to. It might. It might not. They haven't tested it and do not attest that it will...

 

[Sea Change]

CE mark is irrelevant - it simply means the manufacturer has written some paperwork, attesting compliance with some standards (which they may or may not have even tested against!). Its a requirement in order to sell products in the EU, but is not a quality standard or other compatibility statement.

It does not mean it will work with any other system you connect it to. It might. It might not. They haven't tested it and do not attest that it will...

But presumably the insurers are free to decide what they think is relevant.

 

[billskip]

But presumably the insurers are free to decide what they think is relevant.

Well they could get advice here.....

 

[dunedin]

CE mark is irrelevant - it simply means the manufacturer has written some paperwork, attesting compliance with some standards (which they may or may not have even tested against!). Its a requirement in order to sell products in the EU, but is not a quality standard or other compatibility statement.

It does not mean it will work with any other system you connect it to. It might. It might not. They haven't tested it and do not attest that it will...

But in the post you responded to the insurers had said any batteries had to be CE marked (or hopefully they also across UKCA).
That is not irrelevant - that just means a battery permitted to be sold in UK/EU, which seems pretty reasonable.