lustyd
Well-Known Member
As Paul once asked, in a battery with LiFePO4 chemistry, where would the H be coming from? If it’s water, theres a vanishingly small quantity in there these days.
Lithium Positive and Negative Insurers
- Thread starter aqua_sax
- Start date
PaulRainbow
Well-Known Member
You're just posting irrelevant and misleading nonsense now.
Does that make a difference to LFP installs ?
If the system is properly designed and installed there won't be any thermal runaway. Do you have any links of LFP suffering thermal runaway on a boat ?
Again, leisure boats are not subject to MCA requirements.
Sea Change
Well-Known Member
A few weeks ago somebody posted a paper about a study on this. LiFePO4 did outgas a fair bit of H2 but only at very high temperatures.
PaulRainbow
Well-Known Member
Yes, you are correct, technically reassessment is needed for "major craft conversions". I don't think changing the domestic batteries from LA to LFP constitutes a major conversion.
lustyd
Well-Known Member
For what purpose though? Unless the boat is being sold (by a business) or imported why would anyone care? I know you said technically so perhaps you thought so too?
lustyd
Well-Known Member
I don’t think it said a fair bit, it said some. The hydrogen must come from somewhere and it it’s from water there isn’t really enough in there to become very dangerous even if the bizarre artificial conditions were somehow made to happen on a boat.
PaulRainbow
Well-Known Member
Technically, yes, but what private owner of a used boat would do so ? How would the RCD/RCR police know if he didn't ?
Besides, it's nonsense to suggest that swapping LA for LFP is a "major craft conversion", IMO.
Lewis_56
New Member
Navigators & General requires "any papers to show that the work has been inspected and signed off by a qualified electrical engineer?"
They have a lithium ion policy on there website but no mention of phosphate. They said any LFP batteries installed by a "professional" will need a CE mark.
I didn't bother asking anymore questions.
Pantaenius have not changed their policy and require sign off for DIY install.
They have a lithium ion policy on there website but no mention of phosphate. They said any LFP batteries installed by a "professional" will need a CE mark.
I didn't bother asking anymore questions.
Pantaenius have not changed their policy and require sign off for DIY install.
Pye_End
Well-Known Member
From the components.
'For LFP at 100% in air (see Fig. 13), on average, the major component of the off-gas is H2 (36%), then CO (25%), CO (12%) and THC (11%).'
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352152X24008739
PaulRainbow
Well-Known Member
If you were an insurance company and you read some of the things posted in this and other threads about LFP, would you insure DIY installs ?
Sea Change
Well-Known Member
This forum is a veritable gold standard compared to what you see on some of the Facebook groups.
dunedin
Well-Known Member
What constitutes a “major” change is (other than engine changes) a grey area.
Perhaps not helped by some such as British Marine and our PBO hosts who published an article which lists LA to LFP as a example of the type of change which “could” require reassessment - thanks PBO :-(. Boat certification: Do I need my vessel re-certified? - Practical Boat Owner
PaulRainbow
Well-Known Member
That article is just a surveyors opinion and my opinion is much of it is nonsense. I had to laugh at the last bit, where he doesn't have to worry about RCD/RCR when he changed his engine and took the gas out and fitted a diesel hob, because of his boats age. If those are something that are considered major conversions, normally requiring reassessment, he still needs to notify his insurance, i wonder if he did.
mjcp
Well-Known Member
CE mark is irrelevant - it simply means the manufacturer has written some paperwork, attesting compliance with some standards (which they may or may not have even tested against!). Its a requirement in order to sell products in the EU, but is not a quality standard or other compatibility statement.
It does not mean it will work with any other system you connect it to. It might. It might not. They haven't tested it and do not attest that it will...
Sea Change
Well-Known Member
But presumably the insurers are free to decide what they think is relevant.
billskip
Well-Known Member
Well they could get advice here.....
dunedin
Well-Known Member
But in the post you responded to the insurers had said any batteries had to be CE marked (or hopefully they also across UKCA).
That is not irrelevant - that just means a battery permitted to be sold in UK/EU, which seems pretty reasonable.
Sea Change
Well-Known Member
Current discussion ongoing on a large Facebook group about class T fuses. There's are a lot of clueless people out there.
Admittedly, most of them are on narrowboats, where they have the option of stepping ashore if a fire breaks out. But still, a lot of ignorance on display. I've tried to explain to them why a high AIC fuse is necessary but they're not convinced.
Lewis_56
New Member
Having visited Lloyds of London last week, pretty much anything can be insured. For instance cristiano ronaldos leg
It just requires risk management, knowledge and mitigation.
Unfortunately, recreational sailing is very low on the underwriter scale. I think the most knowledgeable and experienced underwriters are working in shipping or other higher value products. Where a VLCC costs 100+ million USD and the cargo could be worth over 160 million USD, risk of oil spills, war risk, etc
Obviously shipping and recreational sailing are not comparable in terms of risk. Which is why i think our underwriters lack knowledge or understanding of mitigation techniques.
I have no problem paying more for a perceived higher risk, as i agree that the underwriter is taking extra risk with DIY installs.
I still prefer doing everything myself and always will. Including seacocks, dripless seals, keel bolts....