fireball
Well-Known Member
Re: LifeJackets - sometimes more of a hinderance than a help.
Oi ... you pansy! /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Oi ... you pansy! /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
LifeJackets - is everyone a pansy these days?
- Thread starter fireball
- Start date
DRANNIE
Well-Known Member
Re: LifeJackets - sometimes more of a hinderance than a help.
oh for god's sake don't be obtuse, read the post in the context of the rest of the thread. (maybe I'm unclear in which case I apologise). I am not suggesting that wearing a jacket is 100% going to save your life so you can willy nilly chuck yourself in the sea or do handstands on the foredeck.
If you accept that wearing a jacket might give you a better chance of survival then if something unforseen (by it very nature something you have missed) occurs you are better off wearing it than not.
I am not suggesting NOT clipping on etc. Unless you honestly believe that people shouldn't carry jackets at all and wear diving weights to ensure drowning, then you have to accept there comes a point when you would put a jacket on. The RNLI argument means that you don't place a condition on wearing an LJ you can never get the Judgement wrong and you or your crew find yourself in the water without a jacket.
back to the lone sailer... yes of course you take all the precautions listed by harness etc. In the middle of the pacific or southern ocean you are probably dead. 100 miles offshore is 2 hours by helicopter? I simply suggest the when weighing up the risk of being complacent against haveing some chance of surviving long enough for a response to my epirb then I'll take the LJ as well as the knotted line, harness etc rather than simply consign myself to the oggin with a sigh. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
oh for god's sake don't be obtuse, read the post in the context of the rest of the thread. (maybe I'm unclear in which case I apologise). I am not suggesting that wearing a jacket is 100% going to save your life so you can willy nilly chuck yourself in the sea or do handstands on the foredeck.
If you accept that wearing a jacket might give you a better chance of survival then if something unforseen (by it very nature something you have missed) occurs you are better off wearing it than not.
I am not suggesting NOT clipping on etc. Unless you honestly believe that people shouldn't carry jackets at all and wear diving weights to ensure drowning, then you have to accept there comes a point when you would put a jacket on. The RNLI argument means that you don't place a condition on wearing an LJ you can never get the Judgement wrong and you or your crew find yourself in the water without a jacket.
back to the lone sailer... yes of course you take all the precautions listed by harness etc. In the middle of the pacific or southern ocean you are probably dead. 100 miles offshore is 2 hours by helicopter? I simply suggest the when weighing up the risk of being complacent against haveing some chance of surviving long enough for a response to my epirb then I'll take the LJ as well as the knotted line, harness etc rather than simply consign myself to the oggin with a sigh. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
H4B
Well-Known Member
Re: LifeJackets - sometimes more of a hinderance than a help.
All this talk of lifejackets, I have always thought it far more dangerous driving down the road to the boat.
All this talk of lifejackets, I have always thought it far more dangerous driving down the road to the boat.
C
Chrusty1
Guest
Re: LifeJackets - sometimes more of a hinderance than a help.
[ QUOTE ]
back to the lone sailer... yes of course you take all the precautions listed by harness etc. In the middle of the pacific or southern ocean you are probably dead. 100 miles offshore is 2 hours by helicopter? I simply suggest the when weighing up the risk of being complacent against haveing some chance of surviving long enough for a response to my epirb then I'll take the LJ as well as the knotted line, harness etc rather than simply consign myself to the oggin with a sigh. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
If wearing proper harness you wont be in the oggin to need your toys, and and if you aren't and go in the water??..... In cold water, you will be past it long before any SAR can find you. Still there might be some comfort for your relatives in being able to find a body to bring back?
I reckon Rob that you will just have to accept that it's different strokes for different boats /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
[ QUOTE ]
back to the lone sailer... yes of course you take all the precautions listed by harness etc. In the middle of the pacific or southern ocean you are probably dead. 100 miles offshore is 2 hours by helicopter? I simply suggest the when weighing up the risk of being complacent against haveing some chance of surviving long enough for a response to my epirb then I'll take the LJ as well as the knotted line, harness etc rather than simply consign myself to the oggin with a sigh. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
If wearing proper harness you wont be in the oggin to need your toys, and and if you aren't and go in the water??..... In cold water, you will be past it long before any SAR can find you. Still there might be some comfort for your relatives in being able to find a body to bring back?
I reckon Rob that you will just have to accept that it's different strokes for different boats /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
fireball
Well-Known Member
Re: LifeJackets - sometimes more of a hinderance than a help.
You are missing the other point ... that the blind following of safety advice makes you less aware of the dangers.
You are missing the other point ... that the blind following of safety advice makes you less aware of the dangers.
fireball
Well-Known Member
Re: LifeJackets - sometimes more of a hinderance than a help.
Ah - another + for the compulsory fitting of spikes to the middle of your steering wheel! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Ah - another + for the compulsory fitting of spikes to the middle of your steering wheel! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
H4B
Well-Known Member
Re: LifeJackets - sometimes more of a hinderance than a help.
I think I would probably wear a lifejacket on an e boat. Swan 53, it would have to be dark and rough. This is a size thing really don't you think.?
I think I would probably wear a lifejacket on an e boat. Swan 53, it would have to be dark and rough. This is a size thing really don't you think.?
whipper_snapper
Well-Known Member
Re: LifeJackets - sometimes more of a hinderance than a help.
I have no problem with anyone's decision on the subject. I would agree of course that the skipper has the right, nay the duty, to insist that lifejackets are worn when he judges appropriate.
Personally I wear a lifejeacket in the dinghy. I wear a harness and clip on when its rough (whatever that means) or at night. The harness happens to have an integrated life jacket.
There is a price to pay, albeit a small one, and that is the fannying around while donning and shedding clothes. I choose not to do that during daylight under 'normal' condition.
I do think there is a real concern that some folks (not of course the wise and sensible folk here) invest the lifejacket with a semi-mystical power. The fact is that if you go into the water you are in very deep trouble, lifejacket or not. If the lifejacket reduces the care you take to avoid falling in by even 5% then its net effect is to increase your risk. Thus sweeping statements by the RNLI who, almost by definition, are speaking to those who have not thought much about it, make me uneasy.
I have no problem with anyone's decision on the subject. I would agree of course that the skipper has the right, nay the duty, to insist that lifejackets are worn when he judges appropriate.
Personally I wear a lifejeacket in the dinghy. I wear a harness and clip on when its rough (whatever that means) or at night. The harness happens to have an integrated life jacket.
There is a price to pay, albeit a small one, and that is the fannying around while donning and shedding clothes. I choose not to do that during daylight under 'normal' condition.
I do think there is a real concern that some folks (not of course the wise and sensible folk here) invest the lifejacket with a semi-mystical power. The fact is that if you go into the water you are in very deep trouble, lifejacket or not. If the lifejacket reduces the care you take to avoid falling in by even 5% then its net effect is to increase your risk. Thus sweeping statements by the RNLI who, almost by definition, are speaking to those who have not thought much about it, make me uneasy.
Tidewaiter2
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If a bit rough or at night then we all wear L/J's and Lifelines,
[/ QUOTE ] even in bed?! /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
People pay good money for that sort of thing and sailors get it for free! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Chacun 'A Son Gout (with little arrowheady thingy over the u) and all that /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
[ QUOTE ]
If a bit rough or at night then we all wear L/J's and Lifelines,
[/ QUOTE ] even in bed?! /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
People pay good money for that sort of thing and sailors get it for free! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Chacun 'A Son Gout (with little arrowheady thingy over the u) and all that /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Saddletramp
Well-Known Member
Re: LifeJackets - sometimes more of a hinderance than a help.
Crikey Fireball, you must have doen less work than me this afternoon.
By the way I agree that we are too risk averse. Saw an interesting film about children bought up in the Amazon jungle that where playing with machetes.
Those of them that survived learnt they were sharp. /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
Crikey Fireball, you must have doen less work than me this afternoon.
By the way I agree that we are too risk averse. Saw an interesting film about children bought up in the Amazon jungle that where playing with machetes.
Those of them that survived learnt they were sharp. /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
sailing86
Active Member
Re: LifeJackets - sometimes more of a hinderance than a help.
This is my first post on this forum and am doing so because I belive to imply somebody is a 'pansy' for wearing a lifejacket is fundamentally ignorant. Furthermore, it is totally irresponsable to advocate not wearing a lifejacket until it blowing at least a F5 or in exposed weather (as implied in other posts).
The risks posed through sailing a real whether it is a F2 or F8 or whether its a 20ft boat or 70ft. In a sunny F2 and are leaning against a guard rail, what do you do if it snaps? Go for a swim in 10o water and cope with the shock, after all you dont want to be a 'pansy' now! Alternatively, you are standing on the leward side of the boat (yes you shouldn't - but its a sunny day) and an inexperianced crew member releases the mainsheet (purposly or accidentally), what do you then do when you are unconsious and floating faced down in the water?
Sailing is unpredictable and you can not totally plan ahead (even in a F2) for what happens with the weather or the actions of someone else. A lifejacket is very aptly named and thus I would always encourage people to wear one.
This is my first post on this forum and am doing so because I belive to imply somebody is a 'pansy' for wearing a lifejacket is fundamentally ignorant. Furthermore, it is totally irresponsable to advocate not wearing a lifejacket until it blowing at least a F5 or in exposed weather (as implied in other posts).
The risks posed through sailing a real whether it is a F2 or F8 or whether its a 20ft boat or 70ft. In a sunny F2 and are leaning against a guard rail, what do you do if it snaps? Go for a swim in 10o water and cope with the shock, after all you dont want to be a 'pansy' now! Alternatively, you are standing on the leward side of the boat (yes you shouldn't - but its a sunny day) and an inexperianced crew member releases the mainsheet (purposly or accidentally), what do you then do when you are unconsious and floating faced down in the water?
Sailing is unpredictable and you can not totally plan ahead (even in a F2) for what happens with the weather or the actions of someone else. A lifejacket is very aptly named and thus I would always encourage people to wear one.
DRANNIE
Well-Known Member
Re: LifeJackets - sometimes more of a hinderance than a help.
I give up... I'm not blindly doing it because the RNLI tell me to, there is a perfectly rational argument.
I just don't agree that it makes you complacent and more likely to go over the side. Hitting a lump cedar, or a container, your keel falling off or the numpty in a ship/ sunsail yacht, running you down, the skipper running the boat into bramble bank at 5 knots while your having a snooze on the foredeck, has got nothing to do with whether you are wearing a jacket.
We have been talking in general terms but if a simple bit of kit, offshore, gives me a 1% better chance of not sleeping with the fishes then I'll take it please. (As an aside I have pulled myself onto a bav doing 4 knots using a knotted rope, not something I'd like to repeat.)
I suspect we will have to agree to differ. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
I give up... I'm not blindly doing it because the RNLI tell me to, there is a perfectly rational argument.
I just don't agree that it makes you complacent and more likely to go over the side. Hitting a lump cedar, or a container, your keel falling off or the numpty in a ship/ sunsail yacht, running you down, the skipper running the boat into bramble bank at 5 knots while your having a snooze on the foredeck, has got nothing to do with whether you are wearing a jacket.
We have been talking in general terms but if a simple bit of kit, offshore, gives me a 1% better chance of not sleeping with the fishes then I'll take it please. (As an aside I have pulled myself onto a bav doing 4 knots using a knotted rope, not something I'd like to repeat.)
I suspect we will have to agree to differ. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
whipper_snapper
Well-Known Member
Re: LifeJackets - sometimes more of a hinderance than a help.
[ QUOTE ]
A lifejacket is very aptly named and thus I would always encourage people to wear one.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I do think there is a real concern that some folks (not of course the wise and sensible folk here) invest the lifejacket with a semi-mystical power.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A lifejacket is very aptly named and thus I would always encourage people to wear one.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I do think there is a real concern that some folks (not of course the wise and sensible folk here) invest the lifejacket with a semi-mystical power.
[/ QUOTE ]
BrendanS
Well-Known Member
Re: LifeJackets - sometimes more of a hinderance than a help.
On my boat, automatic lifejackets are worn as standard. The reason being I cruise at about 30knts, sometimes faster. If you hit something solid like a submerged container, at that speed, you'd probably all go overboard, and the boat would probably sink pretty quickly
On my boat, automatic lifejackets are worn as standard. The reason being I cruise at about 30knts, sometimes faster. If you hit something solid like a submerged container, at that speed, you'd probably all go overboard, and the boat would probably sink pretty quickly
mikemonty
Well-Known Member
Re: LifeJackets - sometimes more of a hinderance than a help.
I am sure that the website stripped out my italics for emphasis where you quoted me "when I did not agree with this assessment"
- I'm sure you would not have done that simply to skew my words slightly.
But in the event that I misjudged that freak wave and found myself in the drink, I would be content in the knowledge that you had advised me that you were not going to put anyone else's life in danger by asking them to enter the water on my behalf.
Rest assured that as I went down for the third time, at the last minute my hand would break the surface and gently release a signed disclaimer (waterproof, with a little lifejacket on) stating that I was in full control of my faculties if not my lungs, and that I release you (fill in blank here) from any possible legal action on my behalf by my rabidly litiginous family.
Aye - Ye can tak awa' ma choice, but ye can neever tak awa' my REESPONSEEBILITY. (to borrow from a true literary giant)
I am sure that the website stripped out my italics for emphasis where you quoted me "when I did not agree with this assessment"
- I'm sure you would not have done that simply to skew my words slightly.
But in the event that I misjudged that freak wave and found myself in the drink, I would be content in the knowledge that you had advised me that you were not going to put anyone else's life in danger by asking them to enter the water on my behalf.
Rest assured that as I went down for the third time, at the last minute my hand would break the surface and gently release a signed disclaimer (waterproof, with a little lifejacket on) stating that I was in full control of my faculties if not my lungs, and that I release you (fill in blank here) from any possible legal action on my behalf by my rabidly litiginous family.
Aye - Ye can tak awa' ma choice, but ye can neever tak awa' my REESPONSEEBILITY. (to borrow from a true literary giant)
sailing86
Active Member
Re: LifeJackets - sometimes more of a hinderance than a help.
To futher clarify my point, a lifejacket has not got mystical powers however, if you are unconsious in the water, you float faced down. If wearing a lifejacket at least it will roll you over so you dont drown. Wither you recieve the nessesary F.Aid after is a completely different thing (and not for this discussion.
A lifejacket is still very aptly named.
To futher clarify my point, a lifejacket has not got mystical powers however, if you are unconsious in the water, you float faced down. If wearing a lifejacket at least it will roll you over so you dont drown. Wither you recieve the nessesary F.Aid after is a completely different thing (and not for this discussion.
A lifejacket is still very aptly named.
C
Chrusty1
Guest
Re: LifeJackets - sometimes more of a hinderance than a help.
Well, that's your view and you are entitled to it of course, for myself, I have not said people shouldn't wear one, nor have infered that they are being a Pansy if they do.
It is down to the individual sailor to make their own decisions about the matter, why are some of you taking an aggresive stance against folks like me that think this way, are you all members of the Life Jacket Police? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Because of the kind of sailing that I do, ie, I very rarely have a crew aboard, I don't do day sailing, or racing. So I make my decisions about safety matters based on my experience, (over 40 years), and the kind of sailing I do.
This is almost as good as some of the anchor rows that I have seen on here! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif So how can I make my position chrystal clear?
Try this........I don't tell OTHER PEOPLE what they should do aboard THEIR BOATS, so I expect other people to NOT TELL ME what to do aboard MY BOAT..simple isn't it? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Well, that's your view and you are entitled to it of course, for myself, I have not said people shouldn't wear one, nor have infered that they are being a Pansy if they do.
It is down to the individual sailor to make their own decisions about the matter, why are some of you taking an aggresive stance against folks like me that think this way, are you all members of the Life Jacket Police? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Because of the kind of sailing that I do, ie, I very rarely have a crew aboard, I don't do day sailing, or racing. So I make my decisions about safety matters based on my experience, (over 40 years), and the kind of sailing I do.
This is almost as good as some of the anchor rows that I have seen on here! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif So how can I make my position chrystal clear?
Try this........I don't tell OTHER PEOPLE what they should do aboard THEIR BOATS, so I expect other people to NOT TELL ME what to do aboard MY BOAT..simple isn't it? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Tidewaiter2
Well-Known Member
Re: LifeJackets - sometimes more of a hinderance than a help.
[ QUOTE ]
Oi ... you pansy! /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
Could someone come round and help me please;
I am a registered fully paid up pansy (see some of my posts!) but my LJ crotch strap has got tangled in the zip of my heavy seaboots+ the leash of my h/h DSC VHF, and my helmet strap buckle has got stuck round my safety line, which has wrapped round my asbestos gloves, which have snagged in the sash of the PVC pinny we use when pouring out the kettle. And my pack of miniflares is dangling over the lit gas hob, my safety light and plb leashes have tangled together and caught on the galley safety strop and round my LJ/harness quick release buckle and SWMBO isn't due back for another hour.
I need an Elf & Satiety Risk Assessment urgently.
Some help, a knife, a fire extingusher, and a stiff drink would not come amiss either! /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
have a good weekend everyone /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
[ QUOTE ]
Oi ... you pansy! /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
Could someone come round and help me please;
I am a registered fully paid up pansy (see some of my posts!) but my LJ crotch strap has got tangled in the zip of my heavy seaboots+ the leash of my h/h DSC VHF, and my helmet strap buckle has got stuck round my safety line, which has wrapped round my asbestos gloves, which have snagged in the sash of the PVC pinny we use when pouring out the kettle. And my pack of miniflares is dangling over the lit gas hob, my safety light and plb leashes have tangled together and caught on the galley safety strop and round my LJ/harness quick release buckle and SWMBO isn't due back for another hour.
I need an Elf & Satiety Risk Assessment urgently.
Some help, a knife, a fire extingusher, and a stiff drink would not come amiss either! /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
have a good weekend everyone /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
H4B
Well-Known Member
Re: LifeJackets - sometimes more of a hinderance than a help.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Oi ... you pansy! /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
Could someone come round and help me please;
I am a registered fully paid up pansy (see some of my posts!) but my LJ crotch strap has got tangled in the zip of my heavy seaboots+ the leash of my h/h DSC VHF, and my helmet strap buckle has got stuck round my safety line, which has wrapped round my asbestos gloves, which have snagged in the sash of the PVC pinny we use when pouring out the kettle. And my pack of miniflares is dangling over the lit gas hob, my safety light and plb leashes have tangled together and caught on the galley safety strop and round my LJ/harness quick release buckle and SWMBO isn't due back for another hour.
I need an Elf & Satiety Risk Assessment urgently.
Some help, a knife, a fire extingusher, and a stiff drink would not come amiss either! /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
have a good weekend everyone /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
[/ QUOTE ] /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Oi ... you pansy! /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
Could someone come round and help me please;
I am a registered fully paid up pansy (see some of my posts!) but my LJ crotch strap has got tangled in the zip of my heavy seaboots+ the leash of my h/h DSC VHF, and my helmet strap buckle has got stuck round my safety line, which has wrapped round my asbestos gloves, which have snagged in the sash of the PVC pinny we use when pouring out the kettle. And my pack of miniflares is dangling over the lit gas hob, my safety light and plb leashes have tangled together and caught on the galley safety strop and round my LJ/harness quick release buckle and SWMBO isn't due back for another hour.
I need an Elf & Satiety Risk Assessment urgently.
Some help, a knife, a fire extingusher, and a stiff drink would not come amiss either! /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
have a good weekend everyone /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
[/ QUOTE ] /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
whipper_snapper
Well-Known Member
Re: LifeJackets - sometimes more of a hinderance than a help.
Sure, but this is getting a bit silly, as I don't think any of us here really fundamentally disagree or misunderstand. Obviously the the key thing we should be stressing is not to fall in and if lifejackets can distract from that imperative then there is a concern. If they don't - great.
Thats why I tell my crews that they have a harness that incorporates a lifejacket, not vice versa. That, except in the dinghy, I don't much care if they wear a lifejacket or not, but they damn well better clip on when I tell them to.
Sure, but this is getting a bit silly, as I don't think any of us here really fundamentally disagree or misunderstand. Obviously the the key thing we should be stressing is not to fall in and if lifejackets can distract from that imperative then there is a concern. If they don't - great.
Thats why I tell my crews that they have a harness that incorporates a lifejacket, not vice versa. That, except in the dinghy, I don't much care if they wear a lifejacket or not, but they damn well better clip on when I tell them to.
