LifeJackets - is everyone a pansy these days?

I'm not calling you a pansy .. I'm asking if generally we are turning into pansys because we blindly follow "safety advice" ...

I regularly wear a buoyancy aid - every time I race my RS400 or take my turn in the patrol boat ... why? Because I'm more likely to end up in the water and there is nowhere to store it. If I'm "cruising" in a dinghy and there is little wind then I _may_ remove the buoyancy aid for greater comfort (too hot!) ... in the patrol boat it is a club requirement to wear the buoyancy aid - you are there to render assistance to others so may need to enter the water at a moments notice ..

For those that put their lifejackets on before they leave the carpark I question why they are doing so - are they blindly following advice or have they assessed the risks first - as I said - I don't have a problem with wearing lifejackets if there is a real risk of needing it ..

I wore my LJ on the Cherbourg run over last september (as did the crew) ... I know others who didn't ... the difference was in the size of boat and the main method of propulsion ... on the return leg I don't think my LJ went on until the wind increased.
 
Re: LifeJackets - sometimes more of a hinderance than a help.

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I wear my lifejacket for a few simple reasons:

If I fall in the water it will help me float effortlessly
It's the law (here in Ireland)

Simple as

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Second reason fair enough - if it is law then I suppose you'd have to ... but the first reason is a little wishywashy ...

Do you think you are likely to fall in?
If so, why do you think you are likely to fall in?
Can you not do something about the probability of falling in?

Far better to treat the cause rather than the symptoms!!

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I've never fallen in and I never intend to, however there is always a chance that I *could* fall in, so why not have some protection incase something happens that *could* happen

Chances are we're not going to crash our car, but we still wear our seatbelts. What's the probability of crashing? Who knows... probably less than falling out of the boat, but we still wear it!

So, if you wear your seatbelt...
Do you think you are likely to crash?
If so, why do you think you are likely to crash?
Can you not do something about the probability of crashing?

It's personal choice, I don't look down on people who don't wear lifejackets, however if you are coming for a spin on a boat I am in command of, you WILL wear your lifejacket for as long as I am responsible for your life
 
Re: LifeJackets - sometimes more of a hinderance than a help.

Somebody keep reminding me not to sail with Captain Bligh here! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Just kidding, Capt'n /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
Re: LifeJackets - sometimes more of a hinderance than a help.

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So, if you wear your seatbelt...
Do you think you are likely to crash?
If so, why do you think you are likely to crash?
Can you not do something about the probability of crashing?

[/ QUOTE ]
I wear my seatbelt - not because I think I'm likely to cause a crash, but because there is a distinct possibility of someone else causing a crash that I may be involved in. Also, it is the law and I don't fancy a fine or points on my licence.

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I've never fallen in and I never intend to, however there is always a chance that I *could* fall in, so why not have some protection incase something happens that *could* happen

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You could burn yourself on the kettle - do you wear oven gloves when pouring out the hot water?
So - question to you - what do you think the chances are that you'll fall in - considering you've never done so ...


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It's personal choice, I don't look down on people who don't wear lifejackets, however if you are coming for a spin on a boat I am in command of, you WILL wear your lifejacket for as long as I am responsible for your life

[/ QUOTE ] I don't look down on ppl who do wear lifejackets - I question why they are wearing them ... and if I am invited on your boat and wearing LJs is the rule then I'll wear it .. np! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Re: LifeJackets - sometimes more of a hinderance than a help.

I sail a tippy 22ft boat with hank on head sails. I always wear a jacket.

All this is about perception of risk, and I can understand the free choice argument. People do not want to give the feeling of control or freedom from making their own risk assessment on when to wear their jacket.

The RNLI point is that if you wear a jacket as a default then you never risk getting that assessment wrong and killing yourself or members of your crew. Its a hard one to contradict.

I thought this was an interesting angle on the whole debate:
risk assessment
 
Re: LifeJackets - sometimes more of a hinderance than a help.

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It's personal choice, I don't look down on people who don't wear lifejackets, however if you are coming for a spin on a boat I am in command of, you WILL wear your lifejacket for as long as I am responsible for your life

[/ QUOTE ]

Who would hold you responsible for someones life if they came on your boat and refused a lifejacket?

This is symptomatic of the blame culture and handwringing risk-aversion that blights most of the Western World.
YOU should be responsible for your own decisions and actions unless you are incapable of making those decisions or acting on them because of someone else's culpable omission.

Are we men (or women of course) or pant-peeing, twitching, children?

And similarly anyone who is on your boat, as long as they have access to a lifejacket and are made aware of the risks of not wearing it has no reason or excuse to try to hold you responsible.

(perhaps keeping a sense of proportion concerning those risks i.e. sitting in the cockpit in a force 2/3 on a blue-sky day is not usually a big risk)

Can we try to keep blame where its due please?
 
Re: LifeJackets - sometimes more of a hinderance than a help.

Fireball,

apolgies for the delay, but I have been catching up with the thread...

Yes, life in general has become more risk averse here in the UK (and elsewhere). And this is sometimes annoying. Don't tell me, as I am forced to chair an H&S committe at work. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif.

I also agree with those guys who wrote that we don't want legislation on our freely chosen pleasure pursuits. In would really resent someone telling me I have to do it by law, in a non-working environment. HOWEVER, on the boat, as skipper, I advise and ask crew to wear lifejackets at all times when on deck and underway. This is because:

a) I mostly sail with my kids and they in greater danger of coming to harm if they fall in the water

b) some of my crew (the children above) come with us because we, the parents, want them to and lead them here.. it is not entirely a free choice realistically

c) as a skipper, I just don't want to have to make the decision on when to wear it given conditions. It is easier just to have them on all the time (as stated above) and spend the energy on other decisions

Having said this, of course I am human and I don't always follow my own advice. So sometimes I will not wear the life jacket when ferrying back from the mooring - for the simple reason I leave the jackets on board. I know it is risky. It is a risk I take. Also accidents do happen and sometimes my rules are not sufficient to deal with them: take the instance when my not quite 3 year old decided to climb out of the saloon when I was cooking (she did this silently and stealthily, in less than a minute) and promptly decided to join her brothers in the dinghy... pity that they were fishing a few years away from the boat.... so splah I hear.... no she was NOT wearing buoyancy... no she could NOT swim... yes, she did sink our of sight... yes, her brothers (8 and 10 at the time) saved her.... yes she does remember the experience... yes I am not bragging about it... yes I have nightmares about it... yes I did get an earfull from SWMBO (fortunately she was away working in Seattle at the time /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif). Does this mean that I have stopped sailing or anchoring with the kids? No. ...

Sorry, it is drawn out... but sort of addresses your original question.
 
Re: LifeJackets - sometimes more of a hinderance than a help.

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I sail a tippy 22ft boat with hank on head sails. I always wear a jacket.

[/ QUOTE ] Seems a sensible assessment to me - I used to sail a Macwester Rowan with hankon foresail ... I just didn't go up front until it was safe to do so ... or I put on an LJ

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The RNLI point is that if you wear a jacket as a default then you never risk getting that assessment wrong and killing yourself or members of your crew. Its a hard one to contradict.

[/ QUOTE ] That is an easy one to contradict ... wearing a Lifejacket will not, in itself, save your life ... there has to be someone who knows you are in trouble and someone to rescue you. Making it a blanket "rule" to wear your LJ when on the water may give the wearer a false sense of security and therefore more likely to take the risk that results in them being in the water ...
 
Re: LifeJackets - sometimes more of a hinderance than a help.

Skipper is responsible for the safety of the crew - if I say LJs on then it is LJs on ... or you're off ... thats it .. it is my call ... if you want to wear your LJ anyway then fine - go ahead I won't stop you.
 
Re: LifeJackets - sometimes more of a hinderance than a help.

That's fine - sounds like sensible decisions, based on where you are and who you have on board ...

my two nieces came onboard in Feb for a little ride from Itchenor to Chi Marina ... under engine and there were 4 adults onboard ... no lifejackets were used despite both kids being under 3 ... they were supervised at all times and they were not at risk from drowning
 
Re: LifeJackets - sometimes more of a hinderance than a help.

[ QUOTE ]
The RNLI point is that if you wear a jacket as a default then you never risk getting that assessment wrong and killing yourself or members of your crew. Its a hard one to contradict.

[/ QUOTE ]

No Rob it's not hard to contradict at all, I have been doing so since this debate started.

It's about doing what you feel is right is for you in your circumstances, and or any that prevail at the time, I know it's a bit hard for some people to get their heads around, but what earthly use is a life jacket to a single hander, halfway across the pond if he goes over the side...........absolutely nowt! might as well cut his own throat, if he has put in place a few of the well known safety precautions like towing a loooooong knotted line, and a trip line set up for the self sterring, he has half a chance, but if he misses them, or has got himself knocked unconcious, he is a goner, that is all there is to it, the life jacket will be as much use to him as a chocolate fire guard.

Coastal and estuary sailors? different matter entirely, and it's down to each of them to make their own decisions about these things. I am simply pointing out that one size does not fit all. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Re: LifeJackets - sometimes more of a hinderance than a help.

Everyone is responsible for their own safety - obviously the skipper is responsible to ensure that his/her crew are aware or the risks and have all sensible precautions available to them.

What rules you apply to your own boat are up to you, (and obviously, if I was aware of your attitude I would not be sailing with you) but the ultimate responsibility for their own safety remains with the individual.

Anyone who thought they could tell me to wear a lifejacket when I did not agree with this assessment (or helmet, from another thread) is likely to find said jacket obstructing their next bowel movement.
 
Re: LifeJackets - sometimes more of a hinderance than a help.

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The RNLI point is that if you wear a jacket as a default then you never risk getting that assessment wrong and killing yourself or members of your crew. Its a hard one to contradict.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is the thing that makes me uneasy here. That claim is clearly utter rubbish. If you think that by wearing a lifejacket you have somehow bought safety for yourself then you are wrong. You have very marginally increased your chances of surviving if you go overboard.
 
Re: LifeJackets - sometimes more of a hinderance than a help.

When I posted some time ago that on my boat lifejackets are mandatory I had some abuse along the "incapable of assesing conditions & wouldn't sail with you" type stuff.it is a free country & people can do what they like.However an accident by definition is an unexpected action & therefore it is for that reason that we wear lifejackets on my boat all of the time.I have noticed that many of my friends do the same particularly as we get older.When I raced big boats it was indeed whimpish to wear a life jacket,a macho thing probably.
I am quite happy with my decision helped by one of my grandaughters who wanted to know why when I insisted she wore one why I didn't.
I hope that people respect my decision as I respect theirs.
 
Re: LifeJackets - sometimes more of a hinderance than a help.

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Anyone who thought they could tell me to wear a lifejacket when I did not agree with this assessment (or helmet, from another thread) is likely to find said jacket obstructing their next bowel movement.

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Anyone who is on my vessel WILL adhere to safety instructions including putting LJs on when I order them. They are more than welcome to question my decision once they have put their LJ on ... and I will happily give you a reasoned argument based on conditions/crew/passage - this is assuming we're not sinking or swimming having lost the keel! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

If you refused the instruction then you would not be invited again - if you want to risk your life then go ahead, but you're not risking the life of me or my crew - we might have to enter the water to recover your sinking body .. (sinking - no extra t! ) ... which would not happen if you were wearing a LJ ... (unless it failed of course - that is another risk!)

As I said, considered reasons for wearing - not just blind obedience of some organisation who are not there to assess the situation you are in.
 
Re: LifeJackets - sometimes more of a hinderance than a help.

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I hope that people respect my decision as I respect theirs.

[/ QUOTE ]



Absolutely! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Re: LifeJackets - sometimes more of a hinderance than a help.

Agree completely.....

More than that... the boat would be taken directly to the nearest point of landing, and the objector would be put ashore without discussion.

Disagree or otherwise with a skippers actions, on something like this, the skipper gets the final say... no debate.
 
Re: LifeJackets - sometimes more of a hinderance than a help.

[ QUOTE ]

It's personal choice, I don't look down on people who don't wear lifejackets, however if you are coming for a spin on a boat I am in command of, you WILL wear your lifejacket for as long as I am responsible for your life

[/ QUOTE ]

Seems perfectly reasonable to me, I think a lot of the argument agaist wearing safety gear is pretty nonsensilcal, the time when you will fall in is obviously, when you don,t expect it, so the risk assesment bit is rubbish.
I was there (on the Guadiana) when one person drowned and my partner rescued three others, with our dinghy, thank God it was a very stable Tabur Yak, or she could have joined them, they were 20mtrs from the shore!
A mate and I pulled a pissed couple at 1a.m. out in the same place, between the current and cold they were gone if I hadn,t been keeping an eye on them.

In both these incidents, all would have been well if the folk had been wearing some buoyancy.

There is imho, no argument, and this discussion is a bit silly.

But, I am the worlds worst at not adhering to a sensible practice. Like anchor chains, doing no good in the locker.
 
Re: LifeJackets - sometimes more of a hinderance than a help.

Nothing like a good barny on a Friday afternoon! /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
Re: LifeJackets - sometimes more of a hinderance than a help.

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the time when you will fall in is obviously, when you don,t expect it, so the risk assesment bit is rubbish.

[/ QUOTE ]
Do you wear knee pads, elbow pads, gloves, crashhelmet, lifeline, carry fire extinguisher on your person, have personal flares and a HH VHF on?
After all, you never know when you might bash your knee, elbow or crush your hand, get your head bashed on the boom or some bright spark causes a fire in your cockpit ... etc etc ...

You CANNOT cater for every eventuality, and IMHO it is very dangerous to think yourself as "perfectly safe" because you've blindly followed some safety instructions ... its a bit like trying to follow the road SatNavs ... don't just follow the route blindly - look where you're going and make your own mind up!
 
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