LiFe PO4 ...?

[Graculus]

I'm a liveaboard inland waterways boater and I am hoping to replace my (tired) lead acid batteries with a LiFe PO4 system. Pricy, but potentially worth it.

I would only want a professional install of this.

There's a member on here who seems to know what (s)he's talking about (clearly a professional, plus (s)he has mentioned the brand (s)he uses - Renogy - which by all accounts is a much better brand than those suggested by other professionals I have contacted about this).

I would have liked to PM them, but I need to make a few posts before I am allowed. This is part of that process - but in the meantime, I will also be interested to read anyone's thoughts on the subject!

 

[ZigZaging]

I'm a liveaboard inland waterways boater and I am hoping to replace my (tired) lead acid batteries with a LiFe PO4 system. Pricy, but potentially worth it.

I would only want a professional install of this.

There's a member on here who seems to know what (s)he's talking about (clearly a professional, plus (s)he has mentioned the brand (s)he uses - Renogy - which by all accounts is a much better brand than those suggested by other professionals I have contacted about this).

I would have liked to PM them, but I need to make a few posts before I am allowed. This is part of that process - but in the meantime, I will also be interested to read anyone's thoughts on the subject!

Suggest you try the excellent Facebook group "12 volt boating group"

 

[mattonthesea]

Basically we are in the early adopter phase so most of the info on here will be mostly DIY, whether that be from scratch or with drop in batteries.

Professional installation, when I last looked, was prohibitively expensive.

But do a search as there is a tome of info here

 

[geem]

I'm a liveaboard inland waterways boater and I am hoping to replace my (tired) lead acid batteries with a LiFe PO4 system. Pricy, but potentially worth it.

I would only want a professional install of this.

There's a member on here who seems to know what (s)he's talking about (clearly a professional, plus (s)he has mentioned the brand (s)he uses - Renogy - which by all accounts is a much better brand than those suggested by other professionals I have contacted about this).

I would have liked to PM them, but I need to make a few posts before I am allowed. This is part of that process - but in the meantime, I will also be interested to read anyone's thoughts on the subject!

I would install Fogstar batteries if I was going the drop in battery route. A British company where you can speak face to face with the guus building the battery. Way better kit than Renogy in my opinion. Have a trawl around some of the USA sites and see what they think of Renogy kit. I would not consider Renogy for my lithium install.
Be careful of your professional installer. Many 'marine' electricians are clueless when it comes to lithium.

 

[sailaboutvic]

What ever you do , DONT not buy another old drop in , there quite a lot of cheap and nasty once about

 

[Trident]

My boat and dozens I have worked on have Renogy batteries (as I fitted them) etc and I am very happy with them. Highly rated by Will Prowse, have a great BMS with proper protection and 1C charge and discharge, very well made and so far lost just 0.5% of capacity after around 4.5 years of daily live aboard use with big loads like induction and air fryers etc.

Fogstar look good though I have yet to work with them personally and the seem to keep running out of stock and asking you to pay in advance for delivery in a month or two so I worry about availability of replacements if faulty or warranty issues etc but I'm sure as they are a UK company you can ask easily.

My one problem with Renogy that their BMS did not allow series-ing has now been overcome in their latest battery that can series up to 48V . Also in day use for several years now their MPPT, flexible panels and DCDC (ok not daily use on that as the solar is so good you don't need to) I've just ordered 4 of their 340w (22% high efficiency) frame panels to replace my 260w panels as well. And whilst US reviews of customer service are very poor the UK team have got back to me within 24 hours on every query and delivered everything quickly so no complaints there either .

 

[Graculus]

I would install Fogstar batteries if I was going the drop in battery route. A British company where you can speak face to face with the guus building the battery. Way better kit than Renogy in my opinion. Have a trawl around some of the USA sites and see what they think of Renogy kit. I would not consider Renogy for my lithium install.
Be careful of your professional installer. Many 'marine' electricians are clueless when it comes to lithium.

Yes, I've spoken to one and when he mentioned the two brands he uses, I decided no thanks!

 

[dunedin]

One key benefit of LiFePO4 battery technology is lighter weight - which is generally much less of a benefit on inland waterways craft. Is there a good rationale for spending the extra for a new system?

 

[geem]

One key benefit of LiFePO4 battery technology is lighter weight - which is generally much less of a benefit on inland waterways craft. Is there a good rationale for spending the extra for a new system?

Weight isn't even a consideration for us. It's the performance that is the appeal. The extra charge acceptance compared to lead, the high loads we can run that allows electric cooking, running the watermaker, immersion heater. The fact that we can use way more of the batteries capacity and we can install way more battery Ah capacity n the same space.

 

[V1701]

Have you considered lead carbon? I'm pretty convinced it's the way I'll go when I come to replace my LAs. Here's a video on battery choice from an electrician/narrowboater...

 

[geem]

Have you considered lead carbon? I'm pretty convinced it's the way I'll go when I come to replace my LAs. Here's a video on battery choice from an electrician/narrowboater...

They are AGMs batteries with some carbon. It's a marketing ploy. My Trojans have carbon in them. It sounds sexy but they are really just AGMs. Not on a par with lithium

 

[V1701]

They are AGMs batteries with some carbon. It's a marketing ploy. My Trojans have carbon in them. It sounds sexy but they are really just AGMs. Not on a par with lithium

More research required then but I wasn't suggesting they'd perform as well as lithium.

Lithium aside looking up some specs for 110ah batteries:

Lead Acid £100 - 300 cycles (50% discharge)
AGM £160 - 600 cycles (50% discharge)
Lead Carbon £190 - 1500 cycles (50% discharge)

No doubt all the above are exaggerated or might only be achieved in perfect lab conditions but surely there's some element of truth? They're also claimed to suffer less from sitting with a partial charge and to charge more quickly....

 

[geem]

More research required then but I wasn't suggesting they'd perform as well as lithium.

Lithium aside looking up some specs for 110ah batteries:

Lead Acid £100 - 300 cycles (50% discharge)
AGM £160 - 600 cycles (50% discharge)
Lead Carbon £190 - 1500 cycles (50% discharge)

No doubt all the above are exaggerated or might only be achieved in perfect lab conditions but surely there's some element of truth? They're also claimed to suffer less from sitting with a partial charge and to charge more quickly....

What brand of lead carbon?

 

[Trident]

Victron do Lead Carbon now and say this:
Replacing the active material of the negative plate by a lead carbon composite potentially reduces sulfation and improves charge acceptance of the negative plate.

The advantages of lead carbon therefore are:

• Less sulfation in case of partial state-of-charge operation.
• Lower charge voltage and therefore higher efficiency and less corrosion of the positive plate.
• And the overall result is improved cycle life.

The emphasis above is mine and its a great get out jail free card.

The cost of good lithium is now less per usable AH than some fancy lead batteries and its undoubtedly better.
The cheaper option still is a hybrid system where the LifePo takes all the lighter loads day to day not using up LA cycles but the LA is there for back up capacity. Only useful is some applications but with LifePo or hybrid I can't see any reason to buy the hype in carbon

 

[Tranona]

More research required then but I wasn't suggesting they'd perform as well as lithium.

Lithium aside looking up some specs for 110ah batteries:

Lead Acid £100 - 300 cycles (50% discharge)
AGM £160 - 600 cycles (50% discharge)
Lead Carbon £190 - 1500 cycles (50% discharge)

No doubt all the above are exaggerated or might only be achieved in perfect lab conditions but surely there's some element of truth? They're also claimed to suffer less from sitting with a partial charge and to charge more quickly....

From what I have seen, your figures for LA and AGMs are understated and lead carbon overstated. Would like to see the sources for thee figures quoted. If Carbon really did give 2.5 times the potential life for less than 20% premium they would have wiped everything else off the market - and they have not. Indeed not really made much impression at all.

 

[V1701]

From what I have seen, your figures for LA and AGMs are understated and lead carbon overstated. Would like to see the sources for thee figures quoted. If Carbon really did give 2.5 times the potential life for less than 20% premium they would have wiped everything else off the market - and they have not. Indeed not really made much impression at all.

They're not my figures

Lead Carbon
AGM
Lead Acid

I'm really not trying to prove a point here just want to make an informed choice next time I replace my old LAs...

 

[Tranona]

That is manufacturers "puff". Note the terminology used. For AGMs the word "typical" is used to qualify the 600 cycles and for the carbon "up to". Both meaningless. The LA life just states a figure (which is low if used in the same way as the other 2 types).

There is no standard method of defining cycles. it depends on the level of discharge and rate of recharge, so manufacturers choose a figure that suits them without defining how it is arrived at.

All one can say is that carbon is likely to last longer roughly in proportion to the %age higher price - so 20% or so if subject to the same charge/discharge regime. This is broadly true of variations in AGMs - the more you pay, the better the potential life. The big jumps in value as measured by life/price comes from moving from LA to AGMs where a 30% price difference give a potential 50% increase in life and from LA in all its variations to lithium.

As I suggested if carbon really did give double the life in the same conditions for only 20% higher price then they would dominate the market, whereas in reality they are marginal players.

 

[geem]

That is manufacturers "puff". Note the terminology used. For AGMs the word "typical" is used to qualify the 600 cycles and for the carbon "up to". Both meaningless. The LA life just states a figure (which is low if used in the same way as the other 2 types).

There is no standard method of defining cycles. it depends on the level of discharge and rate of recharge, so manufacturers choose a figure that suits them without defining how it is arrived at.

All one can say is that carbon is likely to last longer roughly in proportion to the %age higher price - so 20% or so if subject to the same charge/discharge regime. This is broadly true of variations in AGMs - the more you pay, the better the potential life. The big jumps in value as measured by life/price comes from moving from LA to AGMs where a 30% price difference give a potential 50% increase in life and from LA in all its variations to lithium.

As I suggested if carbon really did give double the life in the same conditions for only 20% higher price then they would dominate the market, whereas in reality they are marginal players.

Bear in mind that true deep cycle LA batteries such as Trojans have excellent life. We have many sets of liveabord friends who get over 8 years out of a set as liveaboard in the Tropics where heat is doing them no good at all. If you can believe their published graphs, they out perform most AGMs at a fraction of the price

 

[Poecheng]

I'm a liveaboard inland waterways boater and I am hoping to replace my (tired) lead acid batteries with a LiFe PO4 system. Pricy, but potentially worth it.

I would only want a professional install of this.

I don't know where you are located buy may be worth having a word with Ed Shiers at About - Four Counties Marine Services He knows what he is doing (I have watched him for a while) and has an instagram site which shows his work on an almost daily/weekly basis.

 

[V1701]

Right so forget lead carbon & go AGM or lithium if upgrading from lead acid seems to be the concensus. Thank you & I hope this is useful to the OP as well...

(FWIW my usual tactic is to just buy whatever lead acids Tayna have on special offer at the time...)