Leisure Battery Capacity. Advice.

[Tranona]

This interested me because we recently upgraded our batteries and went for more batteries and from wet to AGM. We didn’t consider Lithium because general scuttlebutt indicated they can be problematic with some insurers and a quick search online reveals that can of course catch fire in certain circumstance and can be a problem for fire services. To be fair I am not against the concept but with lots of other work to do I didn’t want the phaff of changing charging systems and I took the view that we might consider them when the batteries next need replacing, when I would have more time to research properly and things will likely have moved on a bit.

Posing the question to Mr Google, his AI response on the relative safety of Lithium v lead acid was:

Lithium-ion batteries are generally considered safer than lead-acid batteries, but both can be safe if handled correctly:

• Lithium-ion batteries
  These batteries are less likely to leak, overheat, or explode, and don't contain corrosive acid. Lithium-ion batteries do have a small risk of thermal runaway or fire, but proper handling and charging can reduce this risk.

Things have changed rapidly in the last couple of years. when I planned the new electrics in my project boat 3 years ago AGMs were the best option for my usage pattern. 30% higher price than FLA but 50%% greater cycles plus faster charge acceptance and lower self discharge. The then higher cost of lithium plus charging controls and lack of charging (no solar) could not be justified. Now of course that has changed and overall cost of lithium and charging (extra B2B) for the same usable capacity would be similar. I could also have used a cheaper engine start rather than the super expensive AGM needed to fit the space.

No point in changing now as the AGMs are likely to last 10 years or so the way they are used. similar will apply to you, I expect so when the time comes to replace yours there will be new choices - probably an on board mini nuclear power station!

 

[Robin Cassells]

I know, I know, everyone says Victron batteries are a rip off. But are they when you look at cycle life?

Victron AGM:

• Cycle life @ 80% DoD: 400
• Cycle life @ 50% DoD: 600
• Cycle life @ 30% DoD: 1500

Yep, they will cope with 80% discharge and still return 400 cycles. Treat them right and you get 600 cycles at 50% discharge rates.

Compare that to cycle lives of around 100 or less for cheaper lead acid leisure batteries and the Victrons look cheap at £250 for 110 Ah.

I personally trust Victron to be more honest about cycle life than some other manufacturers. Their 110Ah AGM weighs 32 kg which must say something for the amount lead in it. Cheaper brands are much lighter. Will the Victron take more abuse? Maybe.

Numax CXV seem to last well and are cheaper. But if you are in the habit of deeper than 50% discharge, the Victron AGM may be a better bet.

All those numbers are based on a perfect world and are only theoretical, of course.

Lithium will be a better bet in some cases, but not all.

 

[Sandy]

When somebody in the real world, not a test lab, can tell us what a 'cycle' is then those numbers might be useful.

 

[Tranona]

I know, I know, everyone says Victron batteries are a rip off. But are they when you look at cycle life?

Victron AGM:

• Cycle life @ 80% DoD: 400
• Cycle life @ 50% DoD: 600
• Cycle life @ 30% DoD: 1500

Yep, they will cope with 80% discharge and still return 400 cycles. Treat them right and you get 600 cycles at 50% discharge rates.

Compare that to cycle lives of around 100 or less for cheaper lead acid leisure batteries and the Victrons look cheap at £250 for 110 Ah.

I personally trust Victron to be more honest about cycle life than some other manufacturers. Their 110Ah AGM weighs 32 kg which must say something for the amount lead in it. Cheaper brands are much lighter. Will the Victron take more abuse? Maybe.

Numax CXV seem to last well and are cheaper. But if you are in the habit of deeper than 50% discharge, the Victron AGM may be a better bet.

All those numbers are based on a perfect world and are only theoretical, of course.

Lithium will be a better bet in some cases, but not all.

Can you give some examples of batteries that only claim 100? You are right to make the comparisons, but just stating one side is not a comparison.

 

[Refueler]

I know, I know, everyone says Victron batteries are a rip off. But are they when you look at cycle life?

Victron AGM:

• Cycle life @ 80% DoD: 400
• Cycle life @ 50% DoD: 600
• Cycle life @ 30% DoD: 1500

Yep, they will cope with 80% discharge and still return 400 cycles. Treat them right and you get 600 cycles at 50% discharge rates.

Compare that to cycle lives of around 100 or less for cheaper lead acid leisure batteries and the Victrons look cheap at £250 for 110 Ah.

I personally trust Victron to be more honest about cycle life than some other manufacturers. Their 110Ah AGM weighs 32 kg which must say something for the amount lead in it. Cheaper brands are much lighter. Will the Victron take more abuse? Maybe.

Numax CXV seem to last well and are cheaper. But if you are in the habit of deeper than 50% discharge, the Victron AGM may be a better bet.

All those numbers are based on a perfect world and are only theoretical, of course.

Lithium will be a better bet in some cases, but not all.

Its meaningless - why ? If you think a Lead Acid should be discharged to 50% or less - then sorry - that's very poor battery use ...

How many cycles do you think an average Lead Acid goes through in its life ?? The trick to long Lead Acid life is to minimise its discharged state and get it charged up ...

 

[Robin Cassells]

Its meaningless - why ? If you think a Lead Acid should be discharged to 50% or less - then sorry - that's very poor battery use ...

How many cycles do you think an average Lead Acid goes through in its life ?? The trick to long Lead Acid life is to minimise its discharged state and get it charged up ...

I was merely responding to the OP who says he discharges very deeply. Obviously this is extremely poor use of a battery, as you say. Hence my suggestion for a battery that is more likely to cope with it than his present batteries.

I agree 100% that the best solution is to not discharge deeply and to maintain higher states of charge.

I most certainly do not think batteries should be discharged below 50%. But the OP clearly does do that.

 

[Robin Cassells]

Can you give some examples of batteries that only claim 100? You are right to make the comparisons, but just stating one side is not a comparison.

Add to Wishlist

Halfords Leisure Battery HLB678​

960013​

4.6
(297)
£101.99
Only £96.89 with Motoring Club premium

Ends Today!
+ EXTRA 10% OFF Motoring when you spend £30+
Use code: DEAL10
Exclusions apply.
Spread the cost from £5.07 per month

• NCC Class : C
• Dimensions (L x W x H) : 350 x 174 x 224mm
• Cycles : 80

12V 120AHLeoch Adventurer Dual Terminal Leisure Battery (SFL-120DT)
12V 120 Ah fit-and-forget flooded lead-acid battery for leisure use, with twin terminals Features • Fitted with twin terminals […]
Home > 12V 120AHLeoch Adventurer Dual Terminal Leisure Battery (SFL-120DT)
Upgrade to Express Delivery and order before 3PM for delivery next working day!

Product Summary

Capacity (Ah)
120
Warranty (Years)
2
Terminal Layout

Terminal Type

H: 230mm x W: 175mm x L: 332mm
£119.98 Original price was: £119.98.£109.98Current price is: £109.98.Including VAT & Standard Delivery
Express Delivery Available
Make 3 payments of £36.66. Klarna. Learn more
18+, T&C apply, Credit subject to status.
12V 120AHLeoch Adventurer Dual Terminal Leisure Battery (SFL-120DT) quantity
Add to Basket

Product DescriptionTechnical SpecificationsDatasheet
12V 120 Ah fit-and-forget flooded lead-acid battery for leisure use, with twin terminals

Features
• Fitted with twin terminals for installation versatility (post & thread options available to user) and support of series connections for larger leisure set-ups
• Flooded technology (tried & tested)
• Calcium plate design
• Maintenance-free
• Robust carry handle for easy portability, plus charge level indicator
• Minimal self-discharge – ideal for seasonal use
• Specifically designed for cyclic use over sustained periods of time (deep cycle)
• Typical max. cycle life of 100 cycles @ 50% Depth of Discharge (DoD)*

12V 110AH Xplorer™ Leisure battery (679)
Traditional yet always trusted. This type of battery has been around for years and will be familiar to many in […]
Home > 12V 110AH Xplorer™ Leisure battery (679)
Upgrade to Express Delivery and order before 3PM for delivery next working day!

Product Summary

Capacity (Ah)
110
Warranty (Years)
2
Terminal Layout

Terminal Type

H: 230mm x W: 175mm x L: 330mm
£109.98 Original price was: £109.98.£99.98Current price is: £99.98.Including VAT & Standard Delivery
Express Delivery Available
Make 3 payments of £33.32. Klarna. Learn more
18+, T&C apply, Credit subject to status.
12V 110AH Xplorer™ Leisure battery (679) quantity
Add to Basket

Product DescriptionTechnical SpecificationsWarranty
Traditional yet always trusted. This type of battery has been around for years and will be familiar to many in its looks and appearance. The 110ah battery has been a staple in the leisure community as the flagship battery to go for. Technology and new brands appear but to many this type of battery can never be beaten for quality and value for money. Ideal for Caravan, Boat, Motorhome occasional leisure use
Ideal budget battery for mainly electric hook up use and very occasional wild camping. Our trained advisors can always help select the right battery for your needs. Please call us on 01706356356 for advice
This battery will fit most battery compartments and is sealed
Integrated Carry Handle
2 year Limited Warranty
Charge once a month when not in use and remember to not let the battery run flat.
Typical Max Cycle Life 70 Cycles @ 50% DOD*

 

[PaulRainbow]

I know, I know, everyone says Victron batteries are a rip off. But are they when you look at cycle life?

Victron AGM:

• Cycle life @ 80% DoD: 400
• Cycle life @ 50% DoD: 600
• Cycle life @ 30% DoD: 1500

Yep, they will cope with 80% discharge and still return 400 cycles. Treat them right and you get 600 cycles at 50% discharge rates.

Compare that to cycle lives of around 100 or less for cheaper lead acid leisure batteries and the Victrons look cheap at £250 for 110 Ah.

I personally trust Victron to be more honest about cycle life than some other manufacturers. Their 110Ah AGM weighs 32 kg which must say something for the amount lead in it. Cheaper brands are much lighter. Will the Victron take more abuse? Maybe.

Numax CXV seem to last well and are cheaper. But if you are in the habit of deeper than 50% discharge, the Victron AGM may be a better bet.

All those numbers are based on a perfect world and are only theoretical, of course.

Lithium will be a better bet in some cases, but not all.

Eve Lithium cells, 90% DOD, 8000 cycles.

 

[Robin Cassells]

Eve Lithium cells, 90% DOD, 8000 cycles.

And for the OP I believe this would be the best route. But he wants to avoid lithium, so good AGM is maybe the next best thing.

 

[PaulRainbow]

And for the OP I believe this would be the best route. But he wants to avoid lithium, so good AGM is maybe the next best thing.

Lithium is not for everyone.

IMO, if the OP doesn't want to fit Lithium, for cost reasons, (as he suggests) spending £500 on LA batteries makes no sense, if £230 worth of leisure batteries will do the job.

For the cost of 220ah of Victron AGM he could buy 314ah of Lithium cells, a BMS and a DC-DC charger, give or take a few quid.

 

[Bouba]

If you want wet batteries.....but know you are going to abuse them by letting the charge drop too low....then just get the cheapest leisure batteries you can find...whether it’s an off brand or a special offer...they will probably be calcium, as they tend to be cheap. No wet battery is going to enjoy being abused....so it’s a waste of money to get good ones

 

[Tranona]

I was merely responding to the OP who says he discharges very deeply. .

That is not what he says. The original question was about whether his batteries were knackered as they were flat after 1 hour from the end of a trip that would likely have fully charged them. He explains his actual usage which Paul estimated at 12A with all his items running (post#48) so a bank of 300Ah is adequate. He has a twin screw MOBO with 2 80A alternators. Typical usage might be 2-3 hours engine running and an overnight stop, maybe on shorepower most nights. His set up is very common and works well with FLA batteries or AGMs. Weekend and holiday usage might add up to 50 days (cycles) a year. Despite what your examples suggest FLAs in this type of usage typically last 5+ years. AGMs are around 40% more expensive and have 50-60% potential longer life - that is 8-10 years. The Victrons may last longer, but perhaps not enough to justify the high premium.

 

[PaulRainbow]

If you want wet batteries.....but know you are going to abuse them by letting the charge drop too low....then just get the cheapest leisure batteries you can find...whether it’s an off brand or a special offer...they will probably be calcium, as they tend to be cheap. No wet battery is going to enjoy being abused....so it’s a waste of money to get good ones

As Tranona points out, the OP is not abusing the batteries. They are knackered.

That said, for his modest power requirements, on a motorboat, a couple of sensibly priced leisure batteries should be fine.

 

[Bouba]

As Tranona points out, the OP is not abusing the batteries. They are knackered.

That said, fir his modest power requirements, on a motorboat, a couple of sensibly priced leisure batteries should be fine.

Yes, I saw that and I offered my advice generally and not specifically to anyone. But it’s not really a subject where anyone can take any offence to…..they’re just batteries…not anchors

 

[Neeves]

Yes, I saw that and I offered my advice generally and not specifically to anyone. But it’s not really a subject where anyone can take any offence to…..they’re just batteries…not anchors

You would not be surprised to realise some can take offence far too easily - they actually seem to enjoy it.

Surely the point is, as mentioned, if the batteries are knackered - why? Apparently he is not abusing them, though (I think) he said the batteries had been allowed to run low on capacity (which to me seems abuse). As mentioned, buying new batteries, of any sort, seems a bit of a waste of money if battery protocols remains unchanged.

It maybe OG does not need Lithium, that's his choice - not ours and as he implies restricted space for replacements he might, or might not, find the space issue easier to accept if he uses Lithium. There again he might find the perfect fit in AGMs or whatever.

Jonathan

 

[PaulRainbow]

Abuse of the batteries is very pertinent in this case, the OP recently had a thread on here about the batteries not being properly charged. I have asked, more than once, if/how that issue was resolved, but not had an answer.

It's hard enough to give best advice on a good day, but when people won't provide the necessary information it's totally impossible.

@oldgit can you confirm that the charging issues have been resolved ? If so, how and what are the battery voltages with the engines running ?

 

[oldgit]

Last years usage.
Most cruises from home moorings to marinas with shorepower (Ramsgate/West India* / St Kats) decent 6/ 7 hour runs on alternators to charge batteries with 10/20 day trips?weekends out to nearbye creeks and off grid locations.
Its the annual sojorn round to Gods Own River** where the batteries cannot cope.
On arriving at Teddington, even after 8 hours run time the simple battery alarm device fitted to the leisure bank indicates battery volts are low about an hour after arrival.
Its gets worse from there on in , after any overnight stop on a public mooring, its on with the genny to stop the leisures from going flat.
2 days...we dream about that and no intention to annoy surrounding craft with the pop pop of the genny for extended periods, an hour will bring batteries up a bit.
A couple of hours underway between locks will make virtually no difference, its into a marine for some decent shorepower volts.
Checking the boat log.
Engine hours run and day trips with weekends off grid , estimate that leisure batteries were cycled 30/40 times per year ?
Existing batteries now 3 years old and 450 hours on tacho log since installing.







*Dock.
** Thames.

 

[oldgit]

Abuse of the batteries is very pertinent in this case, the OP recently had a thread on here about the batteries not being properly charged. I have asked, more than once, if/how that issue was resolved, but not had an answer.

It's hard enough to give best advice on a good day, but when people won't provide the necessary information it's totally impossible.

@oldgit can you confirm that the charging issues have been resolved ? If so, how and what are the battery voltages with the engines running ?

Called in local company to check the charging system
PSI Marine Ltd – Marine Electronics & Jetboards

The conclusion was that the charging system...... in their honest opinion , was all functioning . Just.
Suggested that something a bit less Stone Age and more energy efficient would improve matters considerably regards charging.

However, prior to any charge system upgrade it was mutually agreed that the batteries really should be replaced first.

 

[Bouba]

Last years usage.
Most cruises from home moorings to marinas with shorepower (Ramsgate/West India* / St Kats) decent 6/ 7 hour runs on alternators to charge batteries with 10/20 day trips?weekends out to nearbye creeks and off grid locations.
Its the annual sojorn round to Gods Own River** where the batteries cannot cope.
On arriving at Teddington, even after 8 hours run time the simple battery alarm device fitted to the leisure bank indicates battery volts are low about an hour after arrival.
Its gets worse from there on in , after any overnight stop on a public mooring, its on with the genny to stop the leisures from going flat.
2 days...we dream about that and no intention to annoy surrounding craft with the pop pop of the genny for extended periods, an hour will bring batteries up a bit.
A couple of hours underway between locks will make virtually no difference, its into a marine for some decent shorepower volts.
Checking the boat log.
Engine hours run and day trips with weekends off grid , estimate that leisure batteries were cycled 30/40 times per year ?
Existing batteries now 3 years old and 450 hours on tacho log since installing.







*Dock.
** Thames.

I’m very glad that you are enjoying all the wonders that our capital has to offer

 

[Parabordi]

Last years usage.
Most cruises from home moorings to marinas with shorepower (Ramsgate/West India* / St Kats) decent 6/ 7 hour runs on alternators to charge batteries with 10/20 day trips?weekends out to nearbye creeks and off grid locations.
Its the annual sojorn round to Gods Own River** where the batteries cannot cope.
On arriving at Teddington, even after 8 hours run time the simple battery alarm device fitted to the leisure bank indicates battery volts are low about an hour after arrival.
Its gets worse from there on in , after any overnight stop on a public mooring, its on with the genny to stop the leisures from going flat.
2 days...we dream about that and no intention to annoy surrounding craft with the pop pop of the genny for extended periods, an hour will bring batteries up a bit.
A couple of hours underway between locks will make virtually no difference, its into a marine for some decent shorepower volts.
Checking the boat log.
Engine hours run and day trips with weekends off grid , estimate that leisure batteries were cycled 30/40 times per year ?
Existing batteries now 3 years old and 450 hours on tacho log since installing.







*Dock.
** Thames.

That's why I have solar, on Thames batteries charged by mid morning. But buy Renogy panels which are quality, not those crappy Eco-worthy ones I just got as additional.(ps they are replacing)