Leisure Battery Capacity. Advice.

[PaulRainbow]

Tanya have stock.

Bit more money than BMS Tech, but they have a "challenge us on price" thing.

 

[PaulRainbow]

I have a couple of Hankook XL31S 130Ah batteries that are holding up well (so far). Similar to the image below except mine have single terminals. The dual terminal XL31 version is heavier and higher cost so must be be superior.

You posted this as i was typing

I'd be suspicious about the weights, same dimensions etc, so should weigh the same, more or less.

 

[Supertramp]

Even after a run of 8 hours @1500-2000 rpm from 2 X 80ah alternators the leisure batteries were giving up the ghost after an hour or so at end of journey, when both fridges and usual nav gear ie. plotters and radio (s) were being used underway, add a vacuum bog and charging multiple Ipads n phones.

Something still feels wrong here - two alternators at 80Ah should provide a lot of amps and be able to keep up with the various systems running. Unless you are doing it via an inverter? Phones, nav gear, radio shouldn't use much. Bigger batteries will not fix it if the alternators can't keep up. Have you got something consuming 10's of amps or running via an inverter to 240v? If you really have a demand of 90 amps+ then 200Ah of batteries will barely last an hour!

One check is to see the current provided by the alternators to the batteries with everything switched off - I see 30 or 40 amps off a 70AH alternator after 5 mins running with 10% discharged batteries easily exceeding my 10-20A load.

I have a "smart" regulator fitted which has on occasion shut the alternator down when running due to overvoltage (when the batteries are full).

Not sure of your boat but do you need two large starter batteries (yes if two engines or a very large one)?

 

[Aja]

I bought two pumps ... one a rotary hand pump ... other a 12V plug and lead pump ... as you - no longer like humping jerry cans about and trying to pour into tanks ....
Those two pumps (cost about 20 euros each) solve it ... can on pontoon ... pump into can ... switch on / turn handle .... few minutes later can's empty and fuel is in boat tank ... no bad back for a week after ...

Oh on the pontoon ... I have an old telescopic handle wheels from a broken suitcase ... PBO style re-purposed !!

Might work well on a pontoon but difficult to achieve on a swinging mooring.

 

[oldgit]

Something still feels wrong here - two alternators at 80Ah should provide a lot of amps and be able to keep up with the various systems running. Unless you are doing it via an inverter? Phones, nav gear, radio shouldn't use much. Bigger batteries will not fix it if the alternators can't keep up. Have you got something consuming 10's of amps or running via an inverter to 240v? If you really have a demand of 90 amps+ then 200Ah of batteries will barely last an hour!

One check is to see the current provided by the alternators to the batteries with everything switched off - I see 30 or 40 amps off a 70AH alternator after 5 mins running with 10% discharged batteries easily exceeding my 10-20A load.

I have a "smart" regulator fitted which has on occasion shut the alternator down when running due to overvoltage (when the batteries are full).

Not sure of your boat but do you need two large starter batteries (yes if two engines or a very large one)?

No invertors and do suspect my leisures have gone to the great scrapyard in the sky, going to replace with couple of decent quality known make batteries with as many ah as possible that will physically fit the space available.
The boat has twin 240 hp diesels, hence the twin starter batteries in parallel.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Something still feels wrong here - two alternators at 80Ah should provide a lot of amps and be able to keep up with the various systems running.

He didn't say the alternators don't keep up. He said the batteries lost significant capacity after an hour of being fully charged.

The alternators are 80A, not 80AH

Unless you are doing it via an inverter? Phones, nav gear, radio shouldn't use much. Bigger batteries will not fix it if the alternators can't keep up. Have you got something consuming 10's of amps or running via an inverter to 240v? If you really have a demand of 90 amps+ then 200Ah of batteries will barely last an hour!

Again, no suggestion of the alternators not keeping up. In fact, the OP says "Charging system ie. alternators etc checked and appears to be more or less functioning as originally installed."

and

"the leisure batteries were giving up the ghost after an hour or so at end of journey"

 

[Supertramp]

"the leisure batteries were giving up the ghost after an hour or so at end of journey"

Understood and thanks for correcting.

My point was that the load may be well beyond the batteries' capability and worsened if they do not fully charge.

12.3V after an hours running with a considerable load (and engines off) doesn't mean the batteries are shot. He could pay a lot for new batteries and gain another 30mins running per hour but the real problem lies with running that level of load.

Which I think is what you said more succinctly in #35.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Understood and thanks for correcting.

My point was that the load may be well beyond the batteries' capability and worsened if they do not fully charge.

12.3V after an hours running with a considerable load (and engines off) doesn't mean the batteries are shot. He could pay a lot for new batteries and gain another 30mins running per hour but the real problem lies with running that level of load.

Which I think is what you said more succinctly in #35.

I agree that if the load is indeed 90a, which is what it would need to be, the batteries are significantly under capacity. But 90a is an awful lot of current. Short of having an inverter on, running some AC loads (as you suggest) i can't think of anything on the OPs boat that would come anywhere near that.

He says :

Both Fridges. 3/4A each if running
Both VHF radios. On standby, 1A on standby
Touchscreen Chartplotter 2A ish
Eberspacher running after start up 2A
Approx 10 LED clusters in all cabins. 3/4A ?

That's about 12A.

@oldgit Can you get a current reading to verify ?

Also, how did you resolve the charging issues you posted about previously ?

 

[Refueler]

Might work well on a pontoon but difficult to achieve on a swinging mooring.

So how are you getting your cans to the boat ... swimming with them on your back ? I assume you are carrying them in the dinghy ?

Personally I used to have enough fuel on board to get safely to a fuel dock .. never liked carrying large amounts of fuel out to moorings.

 

[Aja]

So how are you getting your cans to the boat ... swimming with them on your back ? I assume you are carrying them in the dinghy ?

Personally I used to have enough fuel on board to get safely to a fuel dock .. never liked carrying large amounts of fuel out to moorings.

Exactly - then heave them up to deck level. Pumping from the dinghy to the tank isn't the brightest of ideas.

 

[Refueler]

Exactly - then heave them up to deck level. Pumping from the dinghy to the tank isn't the brightest of ideas.

I've done it in good weather - what's the problem ? Of course if there's lumpy seas - that's different.

But heaving up onto deck ? Sailboats have the perfect solution - its called a boom ... with a small tackle or the mainsheets - lifting large cans or goods onto deck is a doddle.

 

[Parabordi]

No invertors and do suspect my leisures have gone to the great scrapyard in the sky, going to replace with couple of decent quality known make batteries with as many ah as possible that will physically fit the space available.
The boat has twin 240 hp diesels, hence the twin starter batteries in parallel.

Get Trojans they may be a bit more pricey but you can kill them and they recover. Need 2x as 6v
T-105 Plus Trojan Flooded Deep Cycle Battery 6V 225Ah (T105)

 

[PaulRainbow]

Get Trojans they may be a bit more pricey but you can kill them and they recover. Need 2x as 6v
T-105 Plus Trojan Flooded Deep Cycle Battery 6V 225Ah (T105)

Even if they don't fit the battery boxes ?

Plus, 2 x T105s cost the same as a 314ah Lithium pack.

Lithium certainly is not for everyone, but expensive lead acid options, such as AGM, Gel and T105s have had their day.

In my opinion, it's relatively inexpensive SLAs or Lithium.

 

[Refueler]

Lead Acids .... I used to buy from breakers yards ... but sadly they are now few and far between. I've had them last years ... best was 7 years .. average was 4+ .... given some posts - that is longer than they had with new !!

I still sit with Lead Acids ... I do not use SLA as many SLA are lower amp rated and if subjected to high loads can be damaged. I do think about having small capacity SLA tucked away to back-up the nav electronics ... easily kept topped up by small solar ...

No doubt in future as Lithium becomes more widespread and understood better - I will change to Li ... but at present - I can go to local shop and buy Lead Acid over counter - get a few quid for the old ... it drops in and does its job ..

 

[Parabordi]

Even if they don't fit the battery boxes ?

Plus, 2 x T105s cost the same as a 314ah Lithium pack.

Lithium certainly is not for everyone, but expensive lead acid options, such as AGM, Gel and T105s have had their day.

In my opinion, it's relatively inexpensive SLAs or Lithium.

Trojans don't burst into flames and need careful settings for charging from existing kit. When mine need replacing will buy same again as they have been awesome. If it aint broken don't fix it.

 

[Tranona]

Trojans don't burst into flames and need careful settings for charging from existing kit. When mine need replacing will buy same again as they have been awesome. If it aint broken don't fix it.

You can say exactly the same for what the OP has. Nothing wrong with the type of batteries he has and direct replacements would be fine. The only question is whether he can get a bit more capacity in the same space.

Trojans have their place if you have the usage pattern that justifies the cost, but as has been pointed out if you are a heavy consumer and have the means to charge them efficiently then lithium (which DO NOT burst into flames) are a far better option.

 

[oldgit]

Thanks to all.
Going to contact a couple of local dealers to check if better price available.
Advised to go on battery weight, assumes it means the heavier the battery the more lead the more likely to do the job for longer. ?

 

[Greg2]

…… then lithium (which DO NOT burst into flames) are a far better option.

This interested me because we recently upgraded our batteries and went for more batteries and from wet to AGM. We didn’t consider Lithium because general scuttlebutt indicated they can be problematic with some insurers and a quick search online reveals that can of course catch fire in certain circumstance and can be a problem for fire services. To be fair I am not against the concept but with lots of other work to do I didn’t want the phaff of changing charging systems and I took the view that we might consider them when the batteries next need replacing, when I would have more time to research properly and things will likely have moved on a bit.

Posing the question to Mr Google, his AI response on the relative safety of Lithium v lead acid was:

Lithium-ion batteries are generally considered safer than lead-acid batteries, but both can be safe if handled correctly:

• Lithium-ion batteries
  These batteries are less likely to leak, overheat, or explode, and don't contain corrosive acid. Lithium-ion batteries do have a small risk of thermal runaway or fire, but proper handling and charging can reduce this risk.

 

[Tranona]

That is one indicator, but don't get too obsessed with it. The Hankooks suggested will be fine. The life you get out of them will depend on how you use them. Potential life depends more on type of battery. Generally the more expensive LA variants such as AGMs, carbon, gel traction deep cycle (like Trojans) last longer, but cost more. As Paul says for heavy consumers such as liveaboards or those that want to spend time away from external charging Lithium is now a viable alternative.

However from what you say you are not in this category and the type of battery suggested is the best option.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Trojans don't burst into flames

Neither do LifePO4

Trojans and any other LA batteries can, and do, do this:

and need careful settings for charging from existing kit.

You need to set the charging for any battery, Lithium is no different, once set the BMS looks after everything.

When mine need replacing will buy same again as they have been awesome. If it aint broken don't fix it.

That's up to you, of course.