Jack Stays - Yes or No?

[Dutch01527]

One of the many jobs I have been planning on my new 28 foot boat was adding Jack Stays. However, reading recent MAIB reports and the Yachring Monthly overboard tests I am now not sure.

Looking at most jacks stays on boat in my club they run close to the edge of the deck. With weight on them they would be at or over the the edge. Even with a short tether anyone going under the lifeline would be dragged in the water. Anyone going over the lifeline might be ok if crew could drag them back. Single handed or with a less strong person they would still be trouble. If I went over I think that I would rather be free of the boat( chance of recovery if spotted or carrying a plb in life jacket) rather than dragged along( almost certain death)

I am now considering not using jack stays but instead installing a series of strong points on the boats centreline at e.g: middle of the foredeck, mast base, cockpit ect. More risk whilst moving about but retain protection when clipped on.

Any thoughts?

 

[JumbleDuck]

One of the many jobs I have been planning on my new 28 foot boat was adding Jack Stays. However, reading recent MAIB reports and the Yachring Monthly overboard tests I am now not sure.

Mine run along the coachroof. I can see very little point in having them on the side decks, for the reasons you give. I also have strong points by the mast.

 

[GHA]

I am now considering not using jack stays but instead installing a series of strong points on the boats centreline at e.g: middle of the foredeck, mast base, cockpit ect. More risk whilst moving about but retain protection when clipped on.

Any thoughts?

Mixture of both? Maybe with a line centre between the mast and bow? I use a grigri so the lanyard is always adjustable and can be made as short as possible in a moment.

 

[Neeves]

Agree with GHA - mixture of both. It would be a pain to move from strong point to strong point when dragging a sail. jackstays allow movement and strong points, correctly located, will allow you to work in a fixed position, at the mast, in the bow, with complete security. As JD suggests jackstays on the coach roof would better keep you on the boat. if you fear falling through the lifelines - add nets (as on the Clipper fleet)

Jonathan

 

[BelleSerene]

Chris Beeson did a brilliant article about this in YM a couple of years ago. He proposed running jack stays from each quarter to the mast and forward to the bow, together forming a ‘Y’ shape. This and other excellent ideas at http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/sailing-skills/stay-deck-avoid-mob-51411.

 

[{151760}]

Whenever we go forward, we clip on to the jackstay on the windward, i.e., the high side, so the jackstay is as far from the water as it can be. There are handholds along our coach roof continuing forward of the mast. The jackstays terminate at a strong point on the foredeck which gives us security there. Not perfect, perhaps, but it much reduces our chances of going in the water.

 

[t21]

two clips on LJ/harness of course so you can hop from one the other. I don't much like jackstays with the tripping over things.

PLB is ok but the newer wrist-wearable AIS beacons can be found by anyone (including your own boat) with AIS (they give out a flashing AIS position and special MOB wassername number

 

[Dutch01527]

Chris Beeson did a brilliant article about this in YM a couple of years ago. He proposed running jack stays from each quarter to the mast and forward to the bow, together forming a ‘Y’ shape. This and other excellent ideas at http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/sailing-skills/stay-deck-avoid-mob-51411.

Great article, I had not seen that one. Confirms my worry that conventional Jack Stays are not safe. I will try and find a run over the coach roof and supplement with strong points. I wonder what % of Jack Stays are rigged unsafely and are used without thought. I know I have done so for 30 years before I bought my own boat and started to think about these things.

 

[davidej]

Whenever we go forward, we clip on to the jackstay on the windward, i.e., the high side, so the jackstay is as far from the water as it can be. There are handholds along our coach roof continuing forward of the mast. The jackstays terminate at a strong point on the foredeck which gives us security there. Not perfect, perhaps, but it much reduces our chances of going in the water.

Always going forward along the high side is very good advice.

 

[thinwater]

One of the many jobs I have been planning on my new 28 foot boat was adding Jack Stays. However, reading recent MAIB reports and the Yachring Monthly overboard tests I am now not sure.

Looking at most jacks stays on boat in my club they run close to the edge of the deck. With weight on them they would be at or over the the edge. Even with a short tether anyone going under the lifeline would be dragged in the water. Anyone going over the lifeline might be ok if crew could drag them back. Single handed or with a less strong person they would still be trouble. If I went over I think that I would rather be free of the boat( chance of recovery if spotted or carrying a plb in life jacket) rather than dragged along( almost certain death)

I am now considering not using jack stays but instead installing a series of strong points on the boats centreline at e.g: middle of the foredeck, mast base, cockpit ect. More risk whilst moving about but retain protection when clipped on.

Any thoughts?

You are starting from the false assumption that the lee jackstay is used. On a smaller boat it is not. In fact you really want to hook to windward, because people fall downhill. The centerline won't be much help either.

Also, use very short tethers and crawl. There is little reason to use a 6' tether outside the cockpit on such a small boat.

There is no reason not to do both. Jackstays for moving, but clip to the mast (put a sling around at goose-neck height) or pulpit with the second leg (World Sailing rules say tethers have 2 legs) when you get there. The max lengths are 1 meter/2 meters, but you can make them shorter. You can also double the tether around the hard point or jackstay, halving its length. This is what I do at the forestay on my current boat (Corsair F-24).


I believe you will not find a case of a sailor lost that was clipped using the short tether. I've researched this a lot, and if the short tether was clipped they aren't hard to recover. Generally they just clamber back aboard. Clip short.

Make custom tethers. For the cat in my avitar I used a 3M/.7M split (wide bow). For my current boat 2M/1M is pretty good, but I often double the short tether, giving me three lengths (2M, 1M, 0.5M).

Finally, jackstays should end 1.5M short of both ends. This reasons should be obvious. That lack of need should be just as obvious. Cleat attachment is a matter of convenience, tradition, and laziness, not good design.

At the end of the day, there are also going to be times you just can't fall. Crawl and clip short at the bow.

 

[lw395]

You are starting from the false assumption that the lee jackstay is used. On a smaller boat it is not. In fact you really want to hook to windward, because people fall downhill. The centerline won't be much help either.

Also, use very short tethers and crawl. There is little reason to use a 6' tether outside the cockpit on such a small boat.

There is no reason not to do both. Jackstays for moving, but clip to the mast (put a sling around at goose-neck height) or pulpit with the second leg (World Sailing rules say tethers have 2 legs) when you get there. The max lengths are 1 meter/2 meters, but you can make them shorter. You can also double the tether around the hard point or jackstay, halving its length. This is what I do at the forestay on my current boat (Corsair F-24).


I believe you will not find a case of a sailor lost that was clipped using the short tether. I've researched this a lot, and if the short tether was clipped they aren't hard to recover. Generally they just clamber back aboard. Clip short.

Make custom tethers. For the cat in my avitar I used a 3M/.7M split (wide bow). For my current boat 2M/1M is pretty good, but I often double the short tether, giving me three lengths (2M, 1M, 0.5M).

Finally, jackstays should end 1.5M short of both ends. This reasons should be obvious. That lack of need should be just as obvious. Cleat attachment is a matter of convenience, tradition, and laziness, not good design.

At the end of the day, there are also going to be times you just can't fall. Crawl and clip short at the bow.

All good sense, except I think there is sometimes a case for the jackstay going right to the bow.
It means you can go forward of the forestay and still be hooked on.
Clipping and crawlingat the bow loses its appeal when the bow is poking into waves, or so the minions from the wet end of the boat tell me...

Seriously ,the pulpit is there to be used, you want to be able to do so while hooked on and standing.

At the blunt end, I can't see any benefit in the jackstays going further back than 1.5m from the transom, but there might be in some racing boats.
It's hard to hook on if there's two UFBs sat on the deck between you and the jack stay.
Think about how people move around YOUR boat, not generalisations.
In really horrid weather, we have rigged a temporary jackstay along the centre of the boat, from mast to just in front the wheel.
But the permanent jackstays along the side decks are valuable because they are easy to find, people from other boats expect them to be there etc.
If you've got a better idea, add it as an extra, not instead-of.

 

[thinwater]

All good sense, except I think there is sometimes a case for the jackstay going right to the bow.
It means you can go forward of the forestay and still be hooked on.
Clipping and crawlingat the bow loses its appeal when the bow is poking into waves, or so the minions from the wet end of the boat tell me...

Seriously ,the pulpit is there to be used, you want to be able to do so while hooked on and standing.

At the blunt end, I can't see any benefit in the jackstays going further back than 1.5m from the transom, but there might be in some racing boats.
It's hard to hook on if there's two UFBs sat on the deck between you and the jack stay.
Think about how people move around YOUR boat, not generalisations.
In really horrid weather, we have rigged a temporary jackstay along the centre of the boat, from mast to just in front the wheel.
But the permanent jackstays along the side decks are valuable because they are easy to find, people from other boats expect them to be there etc.
If you've got a better idea, add it as an extra, not instead-of.

If a 2-meter tether is attached to the jackstay, you can stand tall at the forestay with the clip about 1.3 meters behind you. This is trig. Thus, if I want to go to the front I leave the long clip on 1.3 meters behind me, and then clip to the pulpit. Or maybe I double the 2-meter tether if it's crazy, crouch or crawl, and I can still reach the pulpit with the short tether. This is something I actually do, not supposition. Walking tall is foolhardy on some boats and the best way on others; it depends on the size, type, (multihulls pitch more) the motion, and whether a deck-sweeper is set. My practices on the PDQ (avitar) and F-24 (current boat) are quite different. So is the jackstay location and tether lengths. Very different. There are many variations, but you really do NOT need or want the jackstay all the way at the bow. That is nearly universal.

Yes, crawling or scooting are bad when the bow is going under. Standing and clipping long is often worse (ask the dead Clipper sailor). But what I proposed does NOT require or even encourage crawling. It is most true when standing tall. Do the trig and see, that all a 2-meter tether does is create lots of slack at the bow. Try it. It's rather obvious. The only reason the lines are run to the ends is that is where the cleats are. In no other way would it ever be considered good practice. A hard point a few feet back, maybe, but not a jackstay. And the whole pulpit is available.

Yes, these are generalizations. For example, there must be some means of getting around the traveler. I am a HUGE believer in boat-specific solutions. I've had 3 boats with jackstays and the systems were totally different. Change the lengths. Add additional short lines where they make sense. Hard points are good. However, I believe a pair of bow-to-stern lines is far too broadly accepted as conventional wisdom and equivalent to good seamanship.

I would be wary of clipping points in bad locations (say, too near the stern). They might convince someone they are safe. I'm not a believer that it must be impossible to go over the rail. That may be impractical. But you should be close enough to clamber back up (within easy reach of the railings).

I want people to think every piece of it through. Don't accept old practice. Don't accept internet wisdom. Try different things on your boat and see what works and what does not. That is all I ask.

 

[Dutch01527]

You are starting from the false assumption that the lee jackstay is used. On a smaller boat it is not. In fact you really want to hook to windward, because people fall downhill. The centerline won't be much help either.]

I understand the logic but that was not my assumption. Of course I have always used the windward jack stay but what happens when the boat suffers a unexpected gybe? Windward becomes leeward pretty quickly. The only time I have experienced a man over board was in Cowes Week in the 1988 when Nick Bonham of the auctioneer family was knocked overboard on the 80 foot Maxi boat, Maxima. https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/sailing-sailors-overboard-as-cowes-suffers-gales-1169627.html. It was about force 8/9 and we were sailing at c. 16 knots I think. He was not clipped on but if he had been, unless his tether was very, very short, he would had been dragged through the water.

Incidentally, the difference between a proffesional crew and guest amateurs like me was demonstrated on that occasion. They rounded under sail twice and picked him up via a boat hook on the second attempt in about 5 minutes. When I asked the skipper ( actually a young Aussie guy, not Johnny Caulcutt, the owner, as stated in the article) why they had not dropped sail and used the engine, the answer was “ What? We were racing.” Different world.

 

[thinwater]

You are starting from the false assumption that the lee jackstay is used. On a smaller boat it is not. In fact you really want to hook to windward, because people fall downhill. The centerline won't be much help either.]

I understand the logic but that was not my assumption. Of course I have always used the windward jack stay but what happens when the boat suffers a unexpected gybe? Windward becomes leeward pretty quickly. The only time I have experienced a man over board was in Cowes Week in the 1988 when Nick Bonham of the auctioneer family was knocked overboard on the 80 foot Maxi boat, Maxima. https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/sailing-sailors-overboard-as-cowes-suffers-gales-1169627.html. It was about force 8/9 and we were sailing at c. 16 knots I think. He was not clipped on but if he had been, unless his tether was very, very short, he would had been dragged through the water.

Incidentally, the difference between a proffesional crew and guest amateurs like me was demonstrated on that occasion. They rounded under sail twice and picked him up via a boat hook on the second attempt in about 5 minutes. When I asked the skipper ( actually a young Aussie guy, not Johnny Caulcutt, the owner, as stated in the article) why they had not dropped sail and used the engine, the answer was “ What? We were racing.” Different world.

Another point to consider is that at 16 knots his tether would have done him serious harm. With high speed boats you need to either tether short or fall cleanly. In his cases, falling in cleaning may have been the safer option in those specific circumstances.

Yup, there are many scenarios to consider. Beating and running logically require different answers.

 

[Brent Swain]

Something has been missed in all of this. Why did the people mentioned in the article drown? Because they used the wrong attachement point. The centre of the chest. With that attachement point, ones own bow wave burries the head in solid water , making it impossible for the person in the water to breath, drowning them quickly. That also happened in the Farallons double handed race , off Frisco. A British magazine did tests many years ago . They did 4 knots, and had a person in a safety harness jump overboard. At 4 knots, the shock of the line coming tight was just a gentle tug, not uncomfortable. With the centre of the chest attachement, their bow wave burried their head in solid water. Attatching to the centare of the back was much safer ,even comfortable ,but it left them unable to pull themselves back in. The top of the shoulder attachement let them breath, and also let them pull themselves back in. Seems manufacturers have neglected to do any such tests , a possible win in a wrongful death suit, which could change a lot of things.
That is what I have used for many years now. It also lets one sleep in ones harness without the attachement digging into one. Using webbing as a tether ,also makles this possible. The and less obtrusive the harness, the more it will be worn.
At the mast, I have a tether and clip hanging down, so I can clip myself on there , a tether too short to let me hit anything hard, if I slip.
As a single hander, I have no interest in believing there is any chance of being found in mid Pacific ,nor in BC in winter, where our coast is mostly deserted. That would be incredibly naive ,wishful thinking. I have cruised from BC to New Zealand, seeing only a couple ships the whole way, once out of sight of land.

 

[Brent Swain]

Solid, crotch high lifelines drastically reduce the odds of going overboard. At sea, I also rig one chest high , from my stern canopy to the shrouds then down to the bow pulpit. It is not in the way of anything, and easy to take down in port.
For non skid , I use beach sand, which, unlike most comercially made non skid , does not wear smooth over time.

 

[thinwater]

Something has been missed in all of this. Why did the people mentioned in the article drown? Because they used the wrong attachement point. The centre of the chest. With that attachement point, ones own bow wave burries the head in solid water , making it impossible for the person in the water to breath, drowning them quickly. That also happened in the Farallons double handed race , off Frisco. A British magazine did tests many years ago . They did 4 knots, and had a person in a safety harness jump overboard. At 4 knots, the shock of the line coming tight was just a gentle tug, not uncomfortable. With the centre of the chest attachement, their bow wave burried their head in solid water. Attatching to the centare of the back was much safer ,even comfortable ,but it left them unable to pull themselves back in. The top of the shoulder attachement let them breath, and also let them pull themselves back in. Seems manufacturers have neglected to do any such tests , a possible win in a wrongful death suit, which could change a lot of things.
That is what I have used for many years now. It also lets one sleep in ones harness without the attachement digging into one. Using webbing as a tether ,also makles this possible. The and less obtrusive the harness, the more it will be worn.
At the mast, I have a tether and clip hanging down, so I can clip myself on there , a tether too short to let me hit anything hard, if I slip.
As a single hander, I have no interest in believing there is any chance of being found in mid Pacific ,nor in BC in winter, where our coast is mostly deserted. That would be incredibly naive ,wishful thinking. I have cruised from BC to New Zealand, seeing only a couple ships the whole way, once out of sight of land.

Yes, I think it is cinch they have not done any human testing, either tow or drop.

Pictures, please. The only obvious disadvantages are that legs straps are more vital and the tether's function as a positioning line is most natural in the center of the chest. Yes, sometimes, on some boats, leaning on the tether is very useful. The upsides are intriguing and I like the thought process.

 

[thinwater]

... At sea, I also rig one chest high , from my stern canopy to the shrouds then down to the bow pulpit. It is not in the way of anything, and easy to take down in port....

Me too, except mine extend a little less length and I leave them up. Really nice beside the cabin. Practicality depends on the location of the shrouds.

 

[Adonnante]

I have just purchased some back tow lifejackets from Team O...https://www.teamomarine.com/collections/all/products/teamo-inshore-170n-lifejacket-harness. They don't resolve the main issue relating to jackstays but they can make a difference if one falls in whilst tethered to the boat.

Peter.

 

[dom]

I have just purchased.....

Peter.

Cool username, lol !!