Interesting report from the Marine Casualty Investigation Board - Ireland

[Laminar Flow]

- The crew broke before the boat (well the boat didn't break at all) and was recovered. So the boat was seaworthy enough to handle the conditions.

This is by far the most common course of events and in a great many cases the boats are found, sometimes months later, afloat and well. The greatest risk to life and limb is, ironically, during transit to or in the life raft or in the course of rescue.

I would venture that most people on this forum have never been in weather like this. It is very difficult to imagine the pressure of responsibility on the skipper or the psychological dynamics of a terrified crew. I know of at least one case where the crew mutinied after the boat lost it's rudder mid Atlantic and, after locking up the skipper in her cabin, called a passing ship for help. The near-new boat was scuttled, even though the skipper was certain they would have been able to to reach the West Indies, downwind, safely afloat and in due course.

One could, of course, also start a discussion on the design merrits of boats whose behaviour in storm conditions is such that they terrify their crew and that there is little comfort or sense of security to be found in that lovely, spacious cabin below, regardless of the fact that the thing can be be made to hold together. There is not much point in claiming a boat to be seaworthy if it fails to instill that confidence in it's crew.
As in all things, and to quote Oskar Kokoschka: Man is the measure of all things; whoever measures differently, measures falsely.

 

[doris]

Heaving to is only feasible up to a certain point. It bears to remember that a boat can capsize in a breaking sea of about 30% of it's length i.e. 3m for a 30 footer, 4m for a 40 footer. This would coincide with RCD parametres.
I have hove to in a 43' heavy displacement, long keel ketch in a F10 under try sail, not something I would like to try again, as you lay awake at night with the seas breaking over the boat.
Any suggestion of being able to make progress, to weather in anything over a F8 in the open sea is nonsense and even in a F8 is rather questionable for most types of boat we are talking about.

Heaving to with a modern fin and balanced rudder boat is rarely an option. A Rustler or the like maybe. They need proactive sailing.

Being unable to make headway against a F8 is, IMHO, tosh. I well remember being with a noted member of this parish in the Celtic sea and hard on in a F9/10. Cracking off 5 degrees saw us making very rapid progress. at 40 AWA, I forget what the TWA was. Disgustingly short big seas but with the correct sails very very doable, not nice but doable. Didn't have to worry about the vomit in the cockpit as the solid green stuff over the top washed everything out in seconds! A half furled genoa on a Bav 40 is worse than a chocolate teapot! Not the boat's problem but stupid preparation.

What is extraordinary in this accident report is how kind it is to the skipper. No heavy weather sails, never mind storm kit, and no weather planning on a Biscay crossing. Criminal.

 

[kof]

Can't disagree with much of that especially on the sail choice which I suspect was a major factor in this.

20 years ago I got caught out in my Ben 40.7 is pretty snotty conditions (mid to high 40's with gusts way more) and equally snotty seas. We did have storm sails as they were a requirement for our offshore racing. So down came the regular sails and up went the trisail (? in place of the main). We cracked off 5/10 degrees and along with bearing away at the top of a wave to slide instead of jumping off the back, made 7+ knots for the next 5 hours. Was tiring but we did it. With the right kit any decent boat can handle these conditions provided they have prepared and the crew are up for it.

So I agree - this boats biggest problem was taking the offshore route but lacking the proper kit if they got caught. Poor planning by the skipper.

Heaving to with a modern fin and balanced rudder boat is rarely an option. A Rustler or the like maybe. They need proactive sailing.

Being unable to make headway against a F8 is, IMHO, tosh. I well remember being with a noted member of this parish in the Celtic sea and hard on in a F9/10. Cracking off 5 degrees saw us making very rapid progress. at 40 AWA, I forget what the TWA was. Disgustingly short big seas but with the correct sails very very doable, not nice but doable. Didn't have to worry about the vomit in the cockpit as the solid green stuff over the top washed everything out in seconds! A half furled genoa on a Bav 40 is worse than a chocolate teapot! Not the boat's problem but stupid preparation.

What is extraordinary in this accident report is how kind it is to the skipper. No heavy weather sails, never mind storm kit, and no weather planning on a Biscay crossing. Criminal.

 

[[3889]]

Having been down there a fair few times, a Furuno Navtex works all the way across and it would have given them adequate warning to run off to La Rochelle or Bordeaux.
But, to cross the Biscay with no heavy weather sails is extraordinary, to say the least. With 5 on board, dropping the headsail early and putting the storm jib on would be easy, then it would have been just a question oo wrapping a mooring rope round the dropped main to keep it lashed.
All fairly nasty but very survivable, with the right kit. And that IMHO, is the moral! Actually quite a good advert for the Bav!

La Rochelle, or more realistically the lee of Ile d' Oleron, maybe, but good luck entering the Gironde in anything like those conditions. You'll need it. There's a reason many insurers preclude passage south of LaR outside of summer months
Fact is, abandonment was motivated, rightly, through fear of injury, not loss of vessel. They had 300+ miles of seaway to ride out storm otherwise.

 

[Laminar Flow]

They need proactive sailing.

Yes, a short keel can be hove to, I have done it. They may not do that as well as a long keel, but then I did not think that the long keel did that all that well either.

Proactive sailing as a storm survival tactic is not a viable solution for a shorthanded, possibly exhausted crew or for an event lasting several days and during which the violence of motion on board is such that the off watch crew cannot find any rest.

40kts is considered to be the general limit for a boat to make (meaningful or any for that matter, depending on the boat and size) progress to weather and in the open sea. The wind force is not the issue, providing the sails, reduced, shortened or changed, can hold, but the sea state. You can think that is tosh, if you like, but other than in a dire emergency, such as having to claw my way off a lee shore, I'll give it a miss, (if that is ok with you).

I have been in several storms offshore and in a number of boats of different design and to date I have neither had to abandon ship, nor, thankfully, lost a crew or ship. Lost a few sails though ...

Board of transport inquiries follow a formula where they go down a list and tick off boxes ... the stricken vessel did not have storm sails - tick. Then, they pass judgement. Not all those desk warriors have really ever been to sea or on small craft or yachts for that matter.

Most boats I know have sailed around for decades with try sails, storm jibs, drogues, etc on board and most still have their factory creases and wrapper. While I have had the dubious opportunity to try out all or some of those implements, I would be loath to pass judgement on anyone, other in cases of extreme or willful stupidity. It is all too easy to do that from the safety of a couch.
It is rarely the case of a single incident when the proverbial hits the fan, but rather the result of a successive and at times bizarre and unforeseeable chain of events. In this particular case the boat had clearly no problem surviving the loss of it's sails, but it also failed to provide it's crew with the confidence that it could.

In a few of the discussions that have been had here on what qualities are desirable in an offshore cruising boat, I have pointed out that whatever design feature, whether real or imagined, that gives the crew the critical confidence that they will survive is perhaps the most important.

 

[Laminar Flow]

On inquiries:
My sister and her husband belonged to an "Academic Sailing Association" (They knew at some point that they had a systemic problem and started to accept members who did not have a PHD, but were of a more practical bent, such as carpenters or mechanics.) Regardless, they had a boat, a CT 41 ketch, heavy, super seaworthy and slow. It sank after being abandoned & scuttled in a storm while crossing the Atlantic.

When a German flagged vessel is lost, a tribunal comprised of three sea captains convenes to pass judgement on the skipper.

This is what happened: during the severe storm boarding seas tore off the cockpit locker lids and subsequent seas began filling the boat, overwhelming the pumps. There was complete mayhem on board. Crew were bailing with buckets, up to their knees in water, crying and weeping; several others were having a complete breakdown. At this point they called a passing ship and the skipper decided to abandon. Miraculously, they got everyone off safely.

The Association went into the tribunal with some confidence; after all, the skipper had been the very best they had.

The tree captains listened to their story, took affidavits and after a short deliberation asked the skipper a simple question: "Was there nothing you could do to stem the inflow?"
His answer: "With a lot of imagination, perhaps." This was said in the comfort of a heated court room and, I'm sure, after much soul searching and general discussion of the topic since the sinking.

The tribunal declared the skipper at fault; he had failed to do all in his power to prevent the loss of the ship and had admitted so in his own words.

 

[rotrax]

After a knock down, RKJ found his dog house/cabin had shifted almost 4 inches.

He fixed it.......................................

 

[Laminar Flow]

After a knock down, RKJ found his dog house/cabin had shifted almost 4 inches.

He fixed it.......................................

Yes, but he's not an academic and he didn't have a full crew going into meltdown.

 

[Bajansailor]

I crewed on a delivery from here to England 9 years ago on an 80' Maxi - I started a thread about our passage here :
An Idea across the Atlantic

We got clobbered by a gale between the Azores and Plymouth - initially we were running before it with a deep reefed mainsail, until we gybed accidentally, and broke the boom..... that was not much fun.
Somehow we managed to recover the boom and carried on under a small staysail, set with velcro hanks on a synthetic inner forestay - and she was totally transformed then - now her canvas was pulling rather than pushing, and the helm was wonderfully balanced.
When we gybed and broke the boom it was probably only a F 7 - later on the wind increased to F 9 gusting 10, and we had an amazing sail surfing downwind under this little staysail - my maximum speed while helming was 29 knots, and the boat's record was 31 knots.
(She had previously hit 37 knots with the deep reefed main a few hours before we gybed - I was at the chart table, and saw it simultaneously recorded on the log and the GPS).
Thankfully we were not yet on soundings, and although the waves were about 9 metres high, they were of long wavelength.
We surfed past (fairly close) one yacht that was hove to, and not looking too happy - the best thing we could do in those conditions was to just sail as fast as we could downwind with the wee staysail, and just hope that we did not run over a submerged container or a floating tree trunk - if we had, the boat would probably have literally exploded and it would have been sayonara.

 

[RJJ]

midday Shipping Forecast on the 5th - Gale force 8 later in Fitzroy. ( With an overnight gale warning.)
At that point they could probably have diverted towards the west French coast and been safe, but even so, a strong crew might have felt they could carry on.

I wouldn't fancy the west French coast, not knowing if the storm might be upon you, and presumably with savage sea state. Aren't all those ports inaccessible in severe weather?

More attractive to be is running off dragging stuff - given around 300 miles of searoom, if they could do 4 knots that would give them 75 hours. But then you have the have the "stuff" to chuck over. I note the comment above that warps alone don't do enough.

 

[Bajansailor]

But then you have the have the "stuff" to chuck over.

I wonder if a combination of 2 or 3 fenders, with an anchor and some chain, on a long warp, would be fairly effective?

I suppose the optimum length of warp would be a minimum of one wavelength, and preferably as long as possible?

 

[dom]

40kts is considered to be the general limit for a boat to make (meaningful or any for that matter, depending on the boat and size) progress to weather and in the open sea. The wind force is not the issue, providing the sails, reduced, shortened or changed, can hold, but the sea state. You can think that is tosh, if you like, but other than in a dire emergency, such as having to claw my way off a lee shore, I'll give it a miss, (if that is ok with you).

I have been in several storms offshore and in a number of boats of different design and to date I have neither had to abandon ship, nor, thankfully, lost a crew or ship. Lost a few sails though ...

General limits are indeed meaningless tosh as boats are very very different. Some I sail will happily tear upwind in 35-40kts, others not. And that’s okay.

Moreover, all this self-referencing “I’ve sailed in storms and never needed help”, is largely fortuitous. There’s a storm and circumstances out there that can get everyone and that’s the truth. The message from almost all rescue services, and I know the French ones exceptionally well is, “Call, let us know how you feel, talk to us, give us the heads up if things are going wrong, .....you are NOT ALONE!”

This ‘incident’ had a good ending, the system worked, good result, end of.

My point: when it’s all going tits, speak to the rescue services to get a second opinion, see what they say, even if just to talk to a friendly voice. They’ll be delighted to help, of that I have no doubt.

 

[doug748]

I wouldn't fancy the west French coast, not knowing if the storm might be upon you, and presumably with savage sea state. Aren't all those ports inaccessible in severe weather?

More attractive to be is running off dragging stuff - given around 300 miles of searoom, if they could do 4 knots that would give them 75 hours. But then you have the have the "stuff" to chuck over. I note the comment above that warps alone don't do enough.

Yes, though at that point they were not expecting a storm. They set off with a gale forecast for their arrival in Spain and the new forecast on the morning of Wed 5th upgraded this to a force 8. They may have been half way across by then and fairly set to make Brest, perhaps a little north of due east, within 24 hours where they would have been over 100 miles away from the worst of the weather,

The report seems to contradict itself:

"While it was apparent from these forecasts that a gale was due in from the Atlantic to cross the Bay of Biscay around Wednesday the 5th and Thursday the 6th June the Skipper stated that none of these forecasting tools gave him any indication that the gale would develop into a storm."

Then later:

"The weather forecast for Wednesday 5th June was the earliest indication of gale force conditions in sea Area FitzRoy available to the crew. "



Must add that I am not coming up with smart arse suggestions about what they should have done or not done, Just trying to figure out how I, as a card carrying coward of the first rank, might have avoided the worst of it.

.

 

[RJJ]

I wonder if a combination of 2 or 3 fenders, with an anchor and some chain, on a long warp, would be fairly effective?

I suppose the optimum length of warp would be a minimum of one wavelength, and preferably as long as possible?

I think heavy is good. I fancy my Fortress with 6m of chain and its usual warp, plus another warp to the same shackle.

I would worry the fenders add too much buoyancy. Anything that's getting churned around on the surface seems at risk of (1) not giving you much drag (2) as a result, being vulnerable to snatch loads. And fenders themselves aren't that strong anyway.

 

[RJJ]

Yes, though at that point they were not expecting a storm. They set off with a gale forecast for their arrival in Spain and the new forecast on the morning of Wed 5th upgraded this to a force 8. They may have been half way across by then and fairly set to make Brest, perhaps a little north of due east, within 24 hours where they would have been over 100 miles away from the worst of the weather,

The report seems to contradict itself:

"While it was apparent from these forecasts that a gale was due in from the Atlantic to cross the Bay of Biscay around Wednesday the 5th and Thursday the 6th June the Skipper stated that none of these forecasting tools gave him any indication that the gale would develop into a storm."

Then later:

"The weather forecast for Wednesday 5th June was the earliest indication of gale force conditions in sea Area FitzRoy available to the crew. "



Must add that I am not coming up with smart arse suggestions about what they should have done or not done, Just trying to figure out how I, as a card carrying coward of the first rank, might have avoided the worst of it.

.

Me too. I am off that way in July for the first time and am reading this a hole I could easily have entered. Ok I have storm sails but I don't yet have any means of getting an offshore forecast. I think Navtex beckons.....

 

[doris]

Me too. I am off that way in July for the first time and am reading this a hole I could easily have entered. Ok I have storm sails but I don't yet have any means of getting an offshore forecast. I think Navtex beckons.....

A Furuno navrez is v reliable, cheap and dead easy to program and use. For me, an absolute must if going offshore, even it it’s only cross channel,

 

[shaunksb]

Me too. I am off that way in July for the first time and am reading this a hole I could easily have entered. Ok I have storm sails but I don't yet have any means of getting an offshore forecast. I think Navtex beckons.....

Best is to buy/rent a sat phone and download grib files to give you the best indication of what’s happening or likely to happen and you will have plenty of time to plan.

___________________________

 

[Laminar Flow]

General limits are indeed meaningless tosh as boats are very very different. Some I sail will happily tear upwind in 35-40kts, others not.

Naval architects, classification societies, insurance companies, etc. all use certain parametres to determine various aspects of boat design, including seaworthiness. And since we are predominantly talking about small craft here i.e. vessels under 20m (probably just another silly general limit), with a medium size of 10 metres, I should think that all those naval architects, classification societies and not to mention the insurance companies, keen to hang onto our money, are not so terribly far off.

Nowhere do I suggest not calling for help. Nor do I think it wise to quickly criticize a crew that got into trouble; it can indeed happen to any of us and I'm grateful to at least be able to learn from some other poor sailor's misfortune and not have to pay the price myself.

The times I have been in a storm have not imbued me with any sense of heroism or superiority, but a rather sobering realization of how damned lucky I have been and how quickly things can turn to sh**. The most enthusiastic comments, not to say advice, usually come from those who have never been in really bad weather and are often the same that come aboard my boat and tell me they would like to experience a storm at sea. Not bloody likely, if I have anything to do with it.

 

[Seven Spades]

To me the most interesting part of this report is the Irish "recommendations" for equipment:-

The Skipper was not aware of the additional equipment as recommended in the CoP Chapter 2, Table E (list of equipment) for operating in sea areas A1 and A2 and the yachts radiocommunication equipment was deficient in respect of:
• A SART (Sea Area 1).
•An MF radiotelephone installation with watchkeeping function OR alternatively an INMARSAT ship shore radio telephone (Sea Area 2).
Although yacht ‘Loa Zour’ was not equipped with a SART, the vessels AIS system would have enabled search and rescue services identify and locate the yacht.

It states that these are the recommendations for a category B vessel, I wonder if the reccomendations are higher for a category A. The requirement for a SART in A1 is really interesting, they are really good bits of kit but very expensive. The recommendation for an SSB is also an expensive option which I suspect is widely ignored.

These reccomendations are a lot tougher than this country but I wonder if there are many boats that comply to both. It seems to me that there is an implied threat of prosecution if you suffer a loss of life at sea you may well face prosecution for the "deficiencies" even though they are only recommendations.

 

[Stemar]

Being wise after the event is a wonderful thing, but the real benefit of being wise after someone else's event is that, with a bit of luck and some thought, it that it allows us to be wise before our event. If we put all these yes buts and what abouts into our own passage planning, it may just keep us out of a similar nasty hole.