Interesting report from the Marine Casualty Investigation Board - Ireland

[RobbieW]

To me it seems the only advantage they didn't take was to check the Navtex,...assuming it would have received that far offshore?? or otherwise obtain a couple of hours warning.

NAVTEX is an MF service, c. 500Khz, with a range of about 250-400 miles though some stations state 640. There were 3 stations within range, Cross Corsen, A Coruna and Valentia.

I'm still an advocate of NAVTEX if doing trips of days rather than hours duration and more than VHF range offshore. For £400 or so you get a device that sits in the background, recieves and stores messages as they come in. Its not hard to set one up to filter for messages relevant to the passage being done. I understand its probably being phased out and its not sexy (ie internet based) but if one were installed I wouldnt be removing it.

 

[matt1]

Found the excellent video again. Really don't think I would have had the courage to jump into the sea!

 

[anoccasionalyachtsman]

I was also interested to hear that the boat could not make headway into the storm. Easy to write this from my armchair, but I wonder if turning around and running downwind might have helped?

Me too, but the report said that the yacht became disabled. It doesn't (as I recall from reading last night) say in what way.

 

[shaunksb]

Me too, but the report said that the yacht became disabled. It doesn't (as I recall from reading last night) say in what way.

No sails.

________________________

 

[westernman]

No sails.

________________________

Even with sails, there are very few cruising sailing boats of that size which can make any head way into winds of that strength.

I would have run off, and trailed everything I could get my hands on.

 

[steve yates]

Interesting indeed.

that's not what's quoted in the report, though? where do you get this from? My read of this is they were incredibly unlucky - and what worries me is it's not clear how any of us would have fared much better.

• The report says 4th June, Fitzroy/Sole - NW 5 to 7, no gale warnings. They were still a day or two from Biscay
• 6th June gives Biscay 10 perhaps 11. And that's what smacked them. It says by that point there was no avoiding it; that forecast was issued 1130 on the 6th and the really rotten weather was on them shortly after.

I'm really sceptical about the advice that they could have coast-crawled. That might have put them on the lee shore in the area of one of those storm-inaccessible ports on the French coast.

I don't see that a logged passage plan would have helped them much?

To me it seems the only advantage they didn't take was to check the Navtex,...assuming it would have received that far offshore?? or otherwise obtain a couple of hours warning. They could then have set storm sails and removed the sprayhood in good time, and might have been able to weather it in a sustainable way. But still probably not.

I dont think they had storm sails, as one of the recommendations to the ministry of transport at end of the report was that storm sails be included as required for cat A and cat B classes. Without storm sails and with the standard sails blown out, they would have no means of influencing how the boat lay or direction of travel.
It also notes that even if they had used the navtex, it would have made no difference as they were by then not in a position to avoid being enveloped in storm miguel.
All in all I think it was a satisfactory outcome, no casualties and the boat recovered safely and sailed on. Must have been scary as hell jumping into those seas though!!!

 

[westerlylad]

Which preferred forty footers would you pick to have been aboard in this situation?

 

[glynd]

I dont think they had storm sails, as one of the recommendations to the ministry of transport at end of the report was that storm sails be included as required for cat A and cat B classes. Without storm sails and with the standard sails blown out, they would have no means of influencing how the boat lay or direction of travel.

The one thing I've heard of people doing successfully is trailing warps with bare poles.
This was reported first-hand by someone caught out in the southern ocean, and was also in a RNJ video I watched the other day on youtube

Thankfully, I've never personally had to try it in anger.

 

[westernman]

I dont think they had storm sails, as one of the recommendations to the ministry of transport at end of the report was that storm sails be included as required for cat A and cat B classes. Without storm sails and with the standard sails blown out, they would have no means of influencing how the boat lay or direction of travel.
It also notes that even if they had used the navtex, it would have made no difference as they were by then not in a position to avoid being enveloped in storm miguel.
All in all I think it was a satisfactory outcome, no casualties and the boat recovered safely and sailed on. Must have been scary as hell jumping into those seas though!!!

I don't think you want to be setting any sails in F10 or F11.

I would imagine a boat like that would be trying to make more than hull speed under bare poles in F10. And would therefore broach violently when hitting a wave.

In my boat, I can comfortably run off under bare poles in F9.
In F10, I would need to slow down to prevent broaching.

I can't see the use of storm sails in the conditions they encountered.

 

[Achosenman]

In my boat, I can comfortably run off under bare poles in F9.
In F10, I would need to slow down to prevent broaching.

Heavy and slow can be a very good idea sometimes.

 

[doug748]

Which preferred forty footers would you pick to have been aboard in this situation?

☺ One of these:



Sited somewhere inland of Bournemouth.

.

 

[RupertW]

We a similar sized Jeanneau and have drogue ready to be trailed aft if we ever were caught out in anything that extreme. My judgement which may be argued against is that as our sails including the rolling jib have coped with 65 knots heavily reefed we don’t have storm sails as we couldnt go upwind against the kind of waves prolonged 50 knot plus winds would make so would be bare poles and then if needed a drogue to reduce the amount of time beam onto the waves and slow us down.

Hope it never happens but as my wife asked me last weekend to “just for fun” plot out a route from Panama to Australia, I want to be reasonably ready.

 

[Quandary]

We a similar sized Jeanneau and have drogue ready to be trailed aft if we ever were caught out in anything that extreme. My judgement which may be argued against is that as our sails including the rolling jib have coped with 65 knots heavily reefed we don’t have storm sails as we couldnt go upwind against the kind of waves prolonged 50 knot plus winds would make so would be bare poles and then if needed a drogue to reduce the amount of time beam onto the waves and slow us down.

Hope it never happens but as my wife asked me last weekend to “just for fun” plot out a route from Panama to Australia, I want to be reasonably ready.

Sounds like you have a keeper there.

 

[Roberto]

On the same days, that "Miguel" storm caused the capsize of an SNSM vessel just out of Les Sables d'Olonne, they went out after a fisherman activated his epirb, sadly three of the SNSM crew perished, the fisherman was not found.
The accident caused a lot of grief (IIRC even M.Macron went to LS), one of the biggest losses the SNSM ever had (in modern times).
https://www.ouest-france.fr/societe...m-chavire-aux-sables-d-olonne-un-mort-6387001

 

[JumbleDuck]

On the same days, that "Miguel" storm caused the capsize of an SNSM vessel just out of Les Sables d'Olonne, they went out after a fisherman activated his epirb, sadly three of the SNSM crew perished, the fisherman was not found.
The accident caused a lot of grief (IIRC even M.Macron went to LS), one of the biggest losses the SNSM ever had (in modern times).
https://www.ouest-france.fr/societe...m-chavire-aux-sables-d-olonne-un-mort-6387001

I remember some discussion of that here, including some truly terrifying video of the lifeboat's departure. Can't find that, but here is a good report here:

in the light of which I really do wonder whether hugging the (lee) coast would have been such a good idea.

 

[Frogmogman]

I remember some discussion of that here, including some truly terrifying video of the lifeboat's departure. Can't find that, but here is a good report here:

in the light of which I really do wonder whether hugging the (lee) coast would have been such a good idea.

I know the video you mean. I can't find it either.

What a truly horrendous accident that was, made worse by the fact that the new all-weather lifeboat, the Jacky Joly was plagued with issues when delivered, so was in dock for remedial work. Thus it was the old boat, the Patron Jack Morisseau that put to sea.

God bless the three victims, Coxwain Yan Chagnolleau, deputy coxswain Alain Guibert and engineer Dimitri Moulic.

God bless all lifeboatmen who put to sea, with no thought of their own safety, to keep us safe.

 

[matt1]

NAVTEX is an MF service, c. 500Khz, with a range of about 250-400 miles though some stations state 640. There were 3 stations within range, Cross Corsen, A Coruna and Valentia.

I'm still an advocate of NAVTEX if doing trips of days rather than hours duration and more than VHF range offshore. For £400 or so you get a device that sits in the background, recieves and stores messages as they come in. Its not hard to set one up to filter for messages relevant to the passage being done. I understand its probably being phased out and its not sexy (ie internet based) but if one were installed I wouldnt be removing it.

love navtex. Managed to find a 2nd hand Furuno on here last year to install on my new boat.I find it odd that they relied on a“windy.com”model before they left and didn’t update it. I check the shipping forecast even when I cross the Channel eg half way across.

 

[doris]

Having been down there a fair few times, a Furuno Navtex works all the way across and it would have given them adequate warning to run off to La Rochelle or Bordeaux.
But, to cross the Biscay with no heavy weather sails is extraordinary, to say the least. With 5 on board, dropping the headsail early and putting the storm jib on would be easy, then it would have been just a question oo wrapping a mooring rope round the dropped main to keep it lashed.
All fairly nasty but very survivable, with the right kit. And that IMHO, is the moral! Actually quite a good advert for the Bav!

 

[steve yates]

I don't think you want to be setting any sails in F10 or F11.

I would imagine a boat like that would be trying to make more than hull speed under bare poles in F10. And would therefore broach violently when hitting a wave.

In my boat, I can comfortably run off under bare poles in F9.
In F10, I would need to slow down to prevent broaching.

I can't see the use of storm sails in the conditions they encountered.

Fair enough, its not something I know anything about at all. I was more responding to someone suggesting they could have set them whereas they dont appear to have had any, and looking at the video the boat looked completely out of control of any kind. Does heaving to cease to work at all once the winds get up to that sort of force? (i know thats not the best kind of boat for heaving to, but in one that was more amenable to it?

I'm looking at it wondering what I would do if my boat gets caught in similar kind of crap, and I'm thinking, jsd. ?

 

[Roberto]

These were issued on the departure day (valid Jun7th)



These could have been received while on passage, second and third day, both valid Jun7th