IN in EU or OUT from EU

[CAPTAIN FANTASTIC]

I dont recall the Balkan conflict leading to anything like a potential world war.

The Russians took the side of the Serbs-subsequently leaving egg on their faces when the extent of their genocide and war crimes became apparent-while the EU and Nato wallied about before doing anything aproaching halfway useful or constructive.
A prelude to Armageddon-never on your life!

It was driven by a wave of localy whipped up Nationalism, religous intolerance and ethnic strife going back to the Ottaman Empire and subsequenly WW2 where many Croats assisted the Germans and fought with them against the Partisans.

It was the iron grip of Marshal Tito that held the fractured Yugoslav societies together. Once communism was gone we witnessed the polItics of religous and ethnic intolerance as a local and very bloody war.

IMHO, of course........................

Not sure whether Tito liked sailing but he would have been very pleased to see the Croatian yachting industry flourishing and perhaps he would have liked to even join the EU too.

 

[steve yates]

It has since it was founded.

Huh? I was talking about USA.

 

[chanelyacht]

perhaps he would have liked to even join the EU too.

Yes, as a dictator who never allowed his people a say in running the country, he'd fit right in in Brussels.

 

[shan]

I'm a brexit supporter - I'm fascinated that you think I have the attiude and arrogance that typified the failing British Empire. I view it as a ridiculously broad and unquantifiable statement that really only says anything about what you personaly want to believe. For any right-minded person to suggest that you can assign any generic characteristic across millions of people based on a a single opinion they hold on a very complex subject is bizarre in the extreme but I'd be interested to see how you would justify and substantiate it?

I do find it arrogant how Brexit supporters completely dismiss the balance of trade and then when challenged, they resort to claiming that the EU needs us more than we need them. This statement is completely illogical, especially, when you do consider the balance of trade.

Then of course, we go onto the next red herring, which is immigration. I don't believe it is racist to discuss it and actually I think an open debate would be the best thing the UK could do because it might actually be a good thing for people to realise how much immigration has benefited this country! Sweeping this sort of debate under the table only panders to bigotry. I think half the reason we have gotten to this point of an EU referendum is because immigration has not been discussed in full. I also think it is a huge mistake to base ones EU decision on immigration, as it is a very narrow slice of what the debate is actually about.

Part of the EU referendum problem is that we are dealing with the older generation and their various generational hang-ups voting for the future of the young.

 

[fergie_mac66]

We buy more from them than they buy from us in cash terms by a long way,How is that arrogant

 

[steve yates]

I do find it arrogant how Brexit supporters completely dismiss the balance of trade and then when challenged, they resort to claiming that the EU needs us more than we need them. This statement is completely illogical, especially, when you do consider the balance of trade.

Then of course, we go onto the next red herring, which is immigration. I don't believe it is racist to discuss it and actually I think an open debate would be the best thing the UK could do because it might actually be a good thing for people to realise how much immigration has benefited this country! Sweeping this sort of debate under the table only panders to bigotry. I think half the reason we have gotten to this point of an EU referendum is because immigration has not been discussed in full. I also think it is a huge mistake to base ones EU decision on immigration, as it is a very narrow slice of what the debate is actually about.

Part of the EU referendum problem is that we are dealing with the older generation and their various generational hang-ups voting for the future of the young.

I totally agree with you about the immigration, it should be discussed, pros and cons, and sadly I think this issue will drive a lot of leave votes.

Which is ironic, because when most folk say immigrants, they don't really mean poles and latvians etc, they mean african/asian/arabic. And as it stands, france is bound to hold everyone trying to reach the uk at the border (calais),and it's not really their problem, it's ours.
if we leave the eu, these agreements no longer hold true and they can close down the camps and let them all reappear in Kent, run by us!

 

[rotrax]

Well put points. Disciss immigration? Some chance.

The moment a debate starts a left winger plays rthe race card and shouts "foul"

On the economy-no one knows what will happen. In monetary terms-Euro's or Pounds the EU would lose far more than the UK. Forget percentage points of GDP-look at the money.

If as a nation we had fully embraced the EU from the start and got out of it the maximum we could we might not be in this position-but we are.

Now the voters will decide and make it clear to the Political Class what they want.

I am getting the impression that the stayer's are being counterproductive with the scaremongering.

As I stated on another post on the same subject, I am totally amazed that our PM has not said something like the following, which I consider to be his and this Governments duty:-
"As you know I am for staying in. However, I and your Government are fully committed to acting on whatever is decided in the referendum to the best of our ability."

Dont hold your breath..................................

 

[awol]

So it all comes down to money does it? If that is the case what value do you put on the right to self determination, to not be governed by the unelected faceless ones who you cannot get rid of?

So redolent of the Nationalist argument in Scotland pooh-poohed by the "Better Together" camp. We were promised unlikely monetary benefits, threatened with dire consequences from both sides and in the end narrowly plumped for the devil we knew. As it turned out we are getting a half-baked version of the Smith Commission, minor tax raising powers and have been saved from the worst effects of the oil industry slump, though those impacted might disagree.
As for sailing, I look forward to more stories of Johnny Foreigners imposing their countries' rules and regulations (how dare they?) on naive Brits and complaints about jack-boot tactics from the UK Border Force - and that is no matter who wins the referendum.

 

[Retired in Crete]

And as it stands, france is bound to hold everyone trying to reach the uk at the border (calais),and it's not really their problem, it's ours.
if we leave the eu, these agreements no longer hold true and they can close down the camps and let them all reappear in Kent, run by us!

Firstly, this is an agreement between Britain and France, It is nothing to do with the EU.

Secondly, If this agreement broke down you simply apply the same rules to ferries and the cross channel trains as apply to airlines. (They have to return, at their expense, any passenger not having the correct entry papers.) This is why there are no camps at the airports.

John

 

[shan]

Well put points. Disciss immigration? Some chance.

The moment a debate starts a left winger plays rthe race card and shouts "foul"

On the economy-no one knows what will happen. In monetary terms-Euro's or Pounds the EU would lose far more than the UK. Forget percentage points of GDP-look at the money.

If as a nation we had fully embraced the EU from the start and got out of it the maximum we could we might not be in this position-but we are.

Now the voters will decide and make it clear to the Political Class what they want.

I am getting the impression that the stayer's are being counterproductive with the scaremongering.

As I stated on another post on the same subject, I am totally amazed that our PM has not said something like the following, which I consider to be his and this Governments duty:-
"As you know I am for staying in. However, I and your Government are fully committed to acting on whatever is decided in the referendum to the best of our ability."

Dont hold your breath..................................

I think you have to look at it as a percentage of GDP. After all, when measuring a profit, you don't just claim that the profit was 'x', you list the profit margin because a £1 profit on a £100 investment is very different to a £30 profit on a £100 investment. GDP is a way of measuring the health of a country's economy.

 

[Bobc]

So redolent of the Nationalist argument in Scotland pooh-poohed by the "Better Together" camp. We were promised unlikely monetary benefits, threatened with dire consequences from both sides and in the end narrowly plumped for the devil we knew. As it turned out we are getting a half-baked version of the Smith Commission, minor tax raising powers and have been saved from the worst effects of the oil industry slump, though those impacted might disagree.
As for sailing, I look forward to more stories of Johnny Foreigners imposing their countries' rules and regulations (how dare they?) on naive Brits and complaints about jack-boot tactics from the UK Border Force - and that is no matter who wins the referendum.

I think you're right in saying that the Scottish Referendum gives clues as to what will happen on an IN vote. Think of all that the govenment promised (and every day kept coming out with new sweeteners) to get people to say "oh, ok then, we'll stay". But as said, once they had the vote, all those promises either got watered down or quietly disappeared, and that's exactly what I expect to happen this time is they get an IN vote.

Not only will none of the things promised happen, but we'll be forced into closer political union much faster.

 

[TangaraToo]

Do people really believe a 'leave' vote will result in the UK actually leaving the EU?
Isn't it more likely following a leave vote that much negotiation will take place followed by a more attractive offer to the leave voters and a second referendum?

 

[fergie_mac66]

I think you have to look at it as a percentage of GDP. After all, when measuring a profit, you don't just claim that the profit was 'x', you list the profit margin because a £1 profit on a £100 investment is very different to a £30 profit on a £100 investment. GDP is a way of measuring the health of a country's economy.

The gdp of the EU is far greater than the gdp of UK so to compare imports and exports it's apples and oranges. We buy a a vast amount more from the EU than we buy from they. They have a lot more to lose than us.

 

[shan]

We will have to agree to disagree.

 

[KellysEye]

Jane and I will vote out but after the vote and if it's out the remaining EU countries, without the UK, will debate the terms of exit which is likely to take years. My bet is what they will demand is punitive sanctions including open borders, the same or more annual contribution and trade tariffs. At that point we tell them to eff off about immigration and and a contribution and introduce tariffs to EU imports. One thing we must not do is agree a free trade agreement with the EU that guarantees freedom of movement, we should use use the World Trade Organisation to agree trade deals with as many countries as possible.

 

[fergie_mac66]

Fair enough, Turn the percentage, cash into practical items say cheese and milk between France and UK. The percentages between the two countries as opposed to the gdp between between UK and EU are meaningless. We buy a huge amount of their total export if trade were to stop French farmers would have the France to a stop in weeks they would be blockading ports. There would be pyres of dead cows in the doorway s of Brussels and strasburg, France would be burning nearly..what would happen here The framers would be praising to God and building up the national cow heard..Percentages and even cash means nothing. Uk house wife's would grumble at the increase in milk and cheese prices but they already know they are paying under the odds and in the shops if you listen to them them, they wouldn't mind paying more for milk and cheese, if it was helping the farmers as opposed to tesco and the EU. the fact that the farmers would be taking on labour would be a bonus.

 

[shan]

You are conflating the issues.

 

[Daydream believer]

The news today suggests that our economy would shrink by 6%. That would make the tax contribution required to cover NHS, education etc increase as a % per family
If the economy shrank one might ask what the economic migrants might do. Might they move on to somewhere more beneficial. ( I remember when a proportion of my labour force went to Germany when i had to lay them off due to lack of work & current migrants are more mobile.) If they did, would not our schools & NHS have a better chance of managing the reduced population. Hence the claimed increased contribution might not actually be needed.
Or is that wrong

Another point that has been made is that the EU does not want us to leave. If that is the case why did Dave have such a problem getting such a miserable outcome from his negotiations. So miserable in fact that the press has stopped telling us what they were - Perhaps everyone has forgotten. I am sure the EU will renege on them once we vote to stay - which we no doubt will. Then closer union will be forced on us. That will accelerate once Jeremy gets in.

Whilst i would like to see the back of the EU I would not like our departure to be seen as the cause of its collapse. Everyone in Europe would hate us-- Business as usual then !!!

 

[fergie_mac66]

No I'm not mixing issue I'm comparing. I'm not mixing the balance of trade with immigration or the balkans either. Percentages are meaningful to bean counters but not to sheep. They bear no relation to our relationship between the EU and us or between the individual countries and us. Trade will continue in Brexit.

 

[Malo37]

Btw i must admit to being very thick as i accidentally voted to stay in on this poll...so take 1 off staying in and add 1 to leaving...!

Can't argue with that.