IN in EU or OUT from EU

[interloper]

Re: Carrot & stick - but where's the carrot?

This is how it looks from across the Atlantic.

Virtually the entire business community advocates "Stay", as do the leaders of both major political parties, including the guy who called for the vote, yet the vote will likely be very close.

Of course, we don't have any reason to be smug. The political campaign money donor class have walked away from Mr. Trump, and much of the Republican leadership has distanced themselves from him, but he is still running close to Ms. Hillary in the public opinion polls.

 

[Kelpie]

Yes, you are right, there should be re-think to correct a number of anomalies which has affected people like you and I; the ex eastern block countries have caused havoc in every way, and the EU human rights act has protected people and illegal immigrants many of which do not deserve protection and they have abused the system; but I feel that we need to fight from within rather being outside.

The HRA has nothing to do with the EU.
Would you care to add some numbers to your assertions about illegal entrants and what they cost us?

 

[Niander]

Re: Carrot & stick - but where's the carrot?

This is how it looks from across the Atlantic.



Virtually the entire business community advocates "Stay", as do the leaders of both major political parties, including the guy who called for the vote, yet the vote will likely be very close.

Not true! More than 300 business leaders back a Brexit including some rather large players such as JCB Diggers and Dyson vacuum cleaners and numerous others...better to get the facts right
From the rather large Telegraph news paper.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...more-than-300-business-leaders-back-a-brexit/

 

[ianj99]

Re: Carrot & stick - but where's the carrot?

Not true! More than 300 business leaders back a Brexit including some rather large players such as JCB Diggers and Dyson vacuum cleaners and numerous others...better to get the facts right
From the rather large Telegraph news paper.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...more-than-300-business-leaders-back-a-brexit/

Sadly, the majority of voters are easily led and are either too timid to vote how they really feel, or are taken in by those who shout loudest. If we end up remaining, it will show that the 'fear factor' works and expect to see this approach used a lot more at General Elections in future.

Its a nonsense to think the 5th biggest world economy, net importer from the EU, but only 6% of UK businesses exporting to the EU is going to suffer after leaving the UK. There are massive opportunities for exports to China, India, South America and the USA, without EU restrictions.

Role on UK Independence Day.

PS why does the remain side still harp on about changing the EU from the inside when they know that, as one of 28, our voice carries no weight (as exemplified by the abject failure of Cameron's negotiations in February)?

 

[Niander]

Re: Carrot & stick - but where's the carrot?

Listen we would be as small and insignificant as Guernsey if we left the EU!
As warned by France's economy minister ....Lol!.....Fear campaign....

 

[dom]

Re: Carrot & stick - but where's the carrot?

Its a nonsense to think the 5th biggest world economy, net importer from the EU, but only 6% of UK businesses exporting to the EU is going to suffer after leaving the UK. There are massive opportunities for exports to China, India, South America and the USA, without EU restrictions.

PS why does the remain side still harp on about changing the EU from the inside when they know that, as one of 28, our voice carries no weight (as exemplified by the abject failure of Cameron's negotiations in February)?

The fact is the UK is currently running a record trade deficit, Germany a record surplus. It is wonderful to hark back to the glory days of the late nineteenth century, but does anybody seriously believe Johnson and Gove could blaze that trail?

The truth is that the UK has significantly shaped the EU and its pragmatic commitment to free trade and open markets is welcomed right across the north. It is also true that the UK was the economic laggard pre joining the EU and a tremendous success story afterwards -- who knows if there's a causality there, but it has been good for Britain.

The Brexit question is however primarily about sovereign purity and if UK citizens are happy to accept a material drop in their wealth and a reduction in world clout, then that is their absolute right.

Either way, it is a decision best taken with one's eyes wide open.

 

[ianj99]

Re: Carrot & stick - but where's the carrot?

The fact is the UK is currently running a record trade deficit, Germany a record surplus. It is wonderful to hark back to the glory days of the late nineteenth century, but does anybody seriously believe Johnson and Gove could blaze that trail?

The truth is that the UK has significantly shaped the EU and its pragmatic commitment to free trade and open markets is welcomed right across the north. It is also true that the UK was the economic laggard pre joining the EU and a tremendous success story afterwards -- who knows if there's a causality there, but it has been good for Britain.

You have no proof that it was EU membership that is responsible for the 'tremendous success story': things may have been even better had we not been a member and therefore been able to export to China, USA etc

The Brexit question is however primarily about sovereign purity and if UK citizens are happy to accept a material drop in their wealth and a reduction in world clout, then that is their absolute right.
Either way, it is a decision best taken with one's eyes wide open.

You also have no evidence to claim ordinary citizens will be less better off nor that we will have less clout.
In fact we can join the World Trade Organisation as a member in our own right and we will remain a permanent member of the UN Security Council as well as NATO.

Having left, and as trading partners with many more countries outside of the EU, we will probably have more clout and the respect we deserve as the 5th largest economy in the world.

Like Boris said, the remain side like to do us down and claim we can't survive or do as well outside the EU - its nonsense...

 

[dom]

Re: Carrot & stick - but where's the carrot?

You have no proof that it was EU membership that is responsible for the 'tremendous success story': things may have been even better had we not been a member and therefore been able to export to China, USA etc

-----------------------------
You also have no evidence to claim ordinary citizens will be less better off nor that we will have less clout.
In fact we can join the World Trade Organisation as a member in our own right and we will remain a permanent member of the UN Security Council as well as NATO.

Having left, and as trading partners with many more countries outside of the EU, we will probably have more clout and the respect we deserve as the 5th largest economy in the world.

Like Boris said, the remain side like to do us down and claim we can't survive or do as well outside the EU - its nonsense...

There is no counterfactual so there can be no absolute proof, but it certainly seems that the EU has done no harm to the UK. Moreover, Germany's striking trade success with China (nearly EUR 200bn bilateral trade last year vs the UK's 60bn) suggests that the EU is not the problem here.

There can of course be no doubt that the UK can survive outside the EU, the question is at what price. And a string of eminent economists warn that the price will be very high indeed; a group which includes several Nobel Prize winners, the same Nobel Prize winners who warned the UK not to enter the euro. Then there are the likes of George Soros and the CEOs of most large UK companies, though by no means all.

Pitched against them we have Boris, Gove, Farage & Co and an assortment of eminent businessman, although even there the EU didn't force Dyson to increase profits by moving most of his production to the Far East.

Either way, it is for UK citizens to now balance all of this and take a view tomorrow.

 

[Bobc]

Re: Carrot & stick - but where's the carrot?

Not true! More than 300 business leaders back a Brexit

I suspect you could add a couple of zeros to that number, it's just that they don't have the voice, the clout, or the PR and lobbying machines of the big few.

 

[CAPTAIN FANTASTIC]

The HRA has nothing to do with the EU.
Would you care to add some numbers to your assertions about illegal entrants and what they cost us?

The European Human Rights was established by the Council of Europe and it is fully exercised by the EU protecting the rights of every person and unfortunately, it also protects the rights of those who abuse democracy and do not "deserve" protection.

 

[Poignard]

The European Human Rights was established by the Council of Europe and it is fully exercised by the EU protecting the rights of every person and unfortunately, it also protects the rights of those who abuse democracy and do not "deserve" protection.

Jesus wept! What stunning ignorance. Democracy is wasted on you, mate.

 

[Bobc]

This is brilliant.

 

[dom]

I've never much liked Cameron. But I think he's right on Brexit and it's increasingly clear that many other EU countries support hIs message of change. It's a tough call, but on the basis of economics and human instinct, I'm in.

 

[CAPTAIN FANTASTIC]

Jesus wept! What stunning ignorance. Democracy is wasted on you, mate.

????????

 

[Niander]

One thing is for sure Turkey will join the EU way sooner than 20 years!
We all know they have done a deal with Turkey over the migrants.
Cameron is blatantly misleading the British people over this just for the votes,wonder what his excuse will be when it happens?
Anyway today's the day for better or worse...i fear worse as more and more poor countries who want a slice of our cake will end up joining to our detriment.

 

[Kelpie]

If you don't want Turkey to join the EU, then stay in and exercise the UK's veto.
Secondly, the Turkey visa deal is off: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...dline-visa-free-travel-eu-ambassador-withdraw

 

[Kelpie]

????????

The Council of Europe is not an EU institution. So brexit will not affect our relationship with it in any way.

The HRA was enacted in 1998 and is an internal affair, it was not forced upon us by the EU.

 

[[448]]

If you don't want Turkey to join the EU, then stay in and exercise the UK's veto.
Secondly, the Turkey visa deal is off: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...dline-visa-free-travel-eu-ambassador-withdraw

The thought of nearly 80,000 very poor muslims joining the EU fills me with horror.
I can't see any of them wanting to come to SW Scotland, but I can see the SE of England being swamped.
Very real scenario.

 

[Niander]

If you don't want Turkey to join the EU, then stay in and exercise the UK's veto.
Secondly, the Turkey visa deal is off: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...dline-visa-free-travel-eu-ambassador-withdraw

from the Guardian article you link too
"In a separate decision, EU ambassadors are expected to approve the opening of negotiations on one part of Turkish membership talks later on Wednesday. The decision to open talks on budget is a symbolic gesture that was promised under the migration deal".

Membership talks!...could you imagine the talks taking 20 years!?...No chance!
Especially when Europe needs Turkeys help in trying to slow the migrants swamping us.

 

[Kelpie]

So what? We have a veto.