Importing a boat from Europe, Trading Standards Response

[obmij]

The UK certifying body for pleasure craft is HPI hpivs.com/ce-certification-2/rcr

When there is disagreement on a subject, I think it is important to be accurate. The above to the best of my knowledge is not. It is a commercial organisation and one of many at that & they primarily work on behalf of established manufactures.

As it happens they appear to be also of the opinion that this is an absolute mess..

Brexit and the UK Government’s changing attitude to post-EU product legislation has muddied the waters. To this day (August 2024), the UK law does not reflect the expressed intentions of the Governent. (sic)

 

[obmij]

What's this below then, Scotch mist??? Lol, God loves a trier. Can we stick to the truth,:} :}

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Re: Tranona started a conversation (PM) with you: "Importing a boat from Europe"
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Didn't Tranona post his personal email somewhere? You'll probably get a better result from that.

 

[Tranona]

More absolute tosh, that's a private company which makes money out of certification of boats which may or may not require it. Privately imported yachts do not require it. What's your connection to that company?

No connection other than using Google to find the link. Of course they are commercial but they are the designated certifying body and by definition can only operate within the law.

 

[Tranona]

When there is disagreement on a subject, I think it is important to be accurate. The above to the best of my knowledge is not. It is a commercial organisation and one of many at that & they primarily work on behalf of established manufactures.

As it happens they appear to be also of the opinion that this is an absolute mess..

Brexit and the UK Government’s changing attitude to post-EU product legislation has muddied the waters. To this day (August 2024), the UK law does not reflect the expressed intentions of the Governent. (sic)

Do you have a link to that? I did read an article a couple of years ago raising the issues, but that was before the changes to allow the continued use of the CE mark rather than re certify to get a UKCA.

What is it about them that you think is inaccurate?

 

[Tranona]

What's this below then, Scotch mist??? Lol, God loves a trier. Can we stick to the truth,:} :}

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There is no problem with my PM details on this forum Did you actually use a reply to my PM to you? You seem to have used email and AFAIK the forum does not use emails for communications between members.

So send me PM now by clicking on my name and I will confirm receipt.

 

[billskip]

Do you have a link to that?

If this is what you mean it's from your own link, I assumed (big mistake to assume on here) you read what you posted

 

[nevis768]

No connection other than using Google to find the link. Of course they are commercial but they are the designated certifying body and by definition can only operate within the law.

Billskip is correct.
There is in no Designated Body in the Act, very clever and misleading wording from that company, and yourself. Having had a look at their website their certification is for testing equipment, ie they are certified to do pressure testing, but they are not certified in any way to decide what requires UK certification in relation to boats. They are not mentioned in the Legislation. They are running certification business which is no longer required.
Due to the fact that the UK now accepts CE marking, they trying to persuade people to have both certifications. Which is not what Trading Standards say or require, nor is it what the Legislation says.
Interestingly, they also say CE marking is accepted, but try to persuade you to have their Certification in case there is a change in the Law. Case proved again, no UK certification required.
[Unwelcome content removed]

 

[PaulRainbow]

Billskip is correct.
There is in no Designated Body in the Act, very clever and misleading wording from that company, and yourself. Having had a look at their website their certification is for testing equipment, ie they are certified to do pressure testing, but they are not certified in any way to decide what requires UK certification in relation to boats. They are not mentioned in the Legislation. They are running certification business which is no longer required.
Due to the fact that the UK now accepts CE marking, they trying to persuade people to have both certifications. Which is not what Trading Standards say or require, nor is it what the Legislation says.
Interestingly, they also say CE marking is accepted, but try to persuade you to have their Certification in case there is a change in the Law. Case proved again, no UK certification required.
I'll await your next load of nonsense.

What happens when someone imports a boat from a non EU country, say the US ?

It won't have a CE mark. It might be a model that has never been sold here. It will not and never has been allowed in the UK without certification. That's been the case with non-EU boats since virtually forever.

The legislation won't give a list of people/companies able to do the certification, that's up to you to find. No different to a million other things that must conform to a particular standard.

 

[westernman]

What happens when someone imports a boat from a non EU country, say the US ?

It won't have a CE mark. It might be a model that has never been sold here. It will not and never has been allowed in the UK without certification. That's been the case with non-EU boats since virtually forever.

And now we have left the EU the same applies to boats coming from the EU. They need to conform to UK RCR.

But UK RCR is just a copy and paste of RCD II with EU replaced by UK in several places.
Also you no longer need to have a UK CA mark - a CE mark is acceptable.

However, the way the law has been written, the boat needs to conform to UK RCR. That is documented to be the case and accepted as being the case if the EU CE mark was issued on or after 2017. Otherwise a PCA is required.

The bit people don't like and some seem to have a hard time understanding is that a good old Bavaria which was sold new in the UK in 2005 will have a EU CE mark and will conform to RCD I. However if you want to import the exactly same boat of the same age from the EU into the UK, it is (in theory), going to need to conform to UK RCR (i.e. essentially RCD II) which it won't because of engine emissions and may be a couple of minor things (which can probably be easily rectified).

Note I said in theory. This is the way the laws and rules are written. Whether they are enforced or not, I have no idea. But I would just remind people that HM Customs to take a lot of interest in boats coming into the country. Mainly for drug smuggling. Also they do check containers of cuddly teddy bears arriving from China and will confiscate the entire shipment if those teddy bears to not meet UK standards (fire, solidity of eye attachment, etc, etc). Do they check that the boat conforms to UK RCR? Do they check documentation?

Of course none of this applies for return of goods. In that case nothing is being imported (it is being returned).

 

[PaulRainbow]

And now we have left the EU the same applies to boats coming from the EU. They need to conform to UK RCR.

<snip>

Thanks, i'm aware of that. My reply was to nevis, who claims "They are running certification business which is no longer required." and "Case proved again, no UK certification required."

So according that that we can all import any boat, any age, from anywhere.

 

[ylop]

Billskip is correct.
There is in no Designated Body in the Act,

The correct terminology is notified body. There are small number in the UK. They may not all offer post construction assessments.

very clever and misleading wording from that company, and yourself. Having had a look at their website their certification is for testing equipment, ie they are certified to do pressure testing, but they are not certified in any way to decide what requires UK certification in relation to boats. They are not mentioned in the Legislation. They are running certification business which is no longer required.

Wow, you really don’t understand this stuff at all do you!

The United Kindgom Accreditation Service (UKAS) certifies bodies which meet the legal requirements for certifying various product standards etc. UKAS is owned/controlled by the Dept of Business and Trade. They don’t make the laws, but they are responsible for overseeing the clipboard waving private organisations which do the actual certifying. All countries in Europe have equivalents.

HPi and IMCS are the organisations approved to deal with recreational craft certification in the U.K.
https://www.ukas.com/download-schedule/6275/Product/ (see p5 on)

https://www.ukas.com/download-schedule/22120/Product/

Anyone else can set up a testing organisation and go through the process of getting it accredited (at considerable expense), but there’s such a small market that it is probably bad business!

 

[nevis768]

And now we have left the EU the same applies to boats coming from the EU. They need to conform to UK RCR.

But UK RCR is just a copy and paste of RCD II with EU replaced by UK in several places.
Also you no longer need to have a UK CA mark - a CE mark is acceptable.

However, the way the law has been written, the boat needs to conform to UK RCR. That is documented to be the case and accepted as being the case if the EU CE mark was issued on or after 2017. Otherwise a PCA is required.

The bit people don't like and some seem to have a hard time understanding is that a good old Bavaria which was sold new in the UK in 2005 will have a EU CE mark and will conform to RCD I. However if you want to import the exactly same boat of the same age from the EU into the UK, it is (in theory), going to need to conform to UK RCR (i.e. essentially RCD II) which it won't because of engine emissions and may be a couple of minor things (which can probably be easily rectified).

Note I said in theory. This is the way the laws and rules are written. Whether they are enforced or not, I have no idea. But I would just remind people that HM Customs to take a lot of interest in boats coming into the country. Mainly for drug smuggling. Also they do check containers of cuddly teddy bears arriving from China and will confiscate the entire shipment if those teddy bears to not meet UK standards (fire, solidity of eye attachment, etc, etc). Do they check that the boat conforms to UK RCR? Do they check documentation?

Of course none of this applies for return of goods. In that case nothing is being imported (it is being returned).

What a load of absolute nonsense from start to finish. None of it is evidenced by legislation, and what lousy is completely contrary to the present legislation.
Customs have nothing whatsoever to do with UK certification and have no powers to check it. Trading Standards are the named enforcement authority in the Act.

Lets not get into the realms of complete fantasy.

Here is the actual legislation,

8. Obligations of private importers​

A private importer is any natural or legal person (e.g. a company) established in the UK who imports in the course of a non-commercial activity a product from a country outside the UK with the intention of putting it into service for their own use.

The obligations of private importers include:

S 36 If a private importer imports a product that has not previously been placed on the GB market, where the manufacturer has not carried out the relevant conformity assessment procedure, the private importer will have to carry out a post construction assessment to demonstrate conformity with the Regulations, as set out in Schedule 5.

What this means is if you import a boat as a private person, if the manufacturer has carried out CE marking then you dont have to do anything.

I never asked Trading Standards about American boats so cant answer that, but the legislation just says you need to do UK marking only if it's a boat model that has not been placed on the UK market before, and where the manufacturer has not carried out the relative conformity procedure. So, it might well be the case that in addition to European boats which do not require UK certification, American boats might now fall in the same category.

 

[ylop]

What a load of absolute nonsense from start to finish. None of it is evidenced by legislation, and what lousy is completely contrary to the present legislation.
Customs have nothing whatsoever to do with UK certification and have no powers to check it. Trading Standards are the named enforcement authority in the Act.

Lets not get into the realms of complete fantasy.

Here is the actual legislation,

8. Obligations of private importers​

A private importer is any natural or legal person (e.g. a company) established in the UK who imports in the course of a non-commercial activity a product from a country outside the UK with the intention of putting it into service for their own use.

The obligations of private importers include:

S 36 If a private importer imports a product that has not previously been placed on the GB market, where the manufacturer has not carried out the relevant conformity assessment procedure, the private importer will have to carry out a post construction assessment to demonstrate conformity with the Regulations, as set out in Schedule 5.

What this means is if you import a boat as a private person, if the manufacturer has carried out CE marking then you dont have to do anything.

I never asked Trading Standards about American boats so cant answer that, but the legislation just says you need to do UK marking only if it's a boat model that has not been placed on the UK market before, and where the manufacturer has not carried out the relative conformity procedure. So, it might well be the case that in addition to European boats which do not require UK certification, American boats might now fall in the same category.

You still haven’t actually shown us the question your asked TS… did you specifically ask about importing a boat which does not have a current CE mark (to the 2013 directive?). Perhaps you’d play nice and show what they were replying to as well as the answer because contrary to what you wrote above it is crystal clear in the legislation that this DOES apply to boats coming from anywhere outside GB.

 

[ylop]

.

Those are pressure testing regulations you complete buffoon.

Anyone who is trying to assess Nevis’ credibility can click those links themselves and will see link 1 - page 5 (and several pages after) is RCD stuff. Second one is only RCD stuff.

 

[nevis768]

Thanks, i'm aware of that. My reply was to nevis, who claims "They are running certification business which is no longer required." and "Case proved again, no UK certification required."

So according that that we can all import any boat, any age, from anywhere.

Where's the legislation you were going to post, still not read it?

 

[nevis768]

Anyone who is trying to assess Nevis’ credibility can click those links themselves and will see link 1 - page 5 (and several pages after) is RCD stuff. Second one is only RCD stuff.

They have no standing under the Act whatsoever.
I 'm sure they may do testing for manufacurers, or importers, who knows, who cares?
The questions is, do you need, as a Private Importer to have your boat tested by them. The answer is NO according to Trading Standards , and this legislation.....

8. Obligations of private importers​

A private importer is any natural or legal person (e.g. a company) established in the UK who imports in the course of a non-commercial activity a product from a country outside the UK with the intention of putting it into service for their own use.

The obligations of private importers include:

• If a private importer imports a product that has not previously been placed on the GB market, where the manufacturer has not carried out the relevant conformity assessment procedure, the private importer will have to carry out a post construction assessment to demonstrate conformity with the Regulations, as set out in Schedule 5.

 

[billskip]

American boats might now fall in the same category.

Some American boats built in China I think are CE marked, Nordhavn for example.

Also apart from the actual hull and superstructure most parts like engine and stuff are CE marked or the necessary compliance plate.
American boats don't all have specific made in America equipment,

 

[ylop]

They have no standing under the Act whatsoever.
I 'm sure they may do testing for manufacurers, or importers, who knows, who cares?
The questions is, do you need, as a Private Importer to have your boat tested by them. The answer is NO according to Trading Standards , and this legislation.....

8. Obligations of private importers​

A private importer is any natural or legal person (e.g. a company) established in the UK who imports in the course of a non-commercial activity a product from a country outside the UK with the intention of putting it into service for their own use.

The obligations of private importers include:

• If a private importer imports a product that has not previously been placed on the GB market, where the manufacturer has not carried out the relevant conformity assessment procedure, the private importer will have to carry out a post construction assessment to demonstrate conformity with the Regulations, as set out in Schedule 5.

Nevis - that’s not the legislation; that is the guidance notes. To find out what the final sentence of your post: WILL HAVE TO CARRY OUT A POST CONSTRUCTION ASSESSMENT GO DEMONSTRATE CONFORMITY means you clearly need to read Schedule 5.

The Recreational Craft Regulations 2017

Which para 2 says - you will lodge at application with a notified/approved body.

If you want to know what a notified/approved body is you need to read s55. The Secretary of State gets UKAS to administer this for him. The organisations I linked to above ARE those bodies.

 

[ylop]

Some American boats built in China I think are CE marked, Nordhavn for example.

Also apart from the actual hull and superstructure most parts like engine and stuff are CE marked or the necessary compliance plate.
American boats don't all have specific made in America equipment,

Yes there’s no reason why a boat made in the USA can’t be CE marked. If it has been designed and built in a way that meets European safety and environmental standards it is “just” a paperwork process - and paying fees to a notified body. If they intend to export boats to the EU they will do it, but if they are focussed on the US market (which of course is huge) then they likely won’t.

 

[westernman]

What a load of absolute nonsense from start to finish. None of it is evidenced by legislation, and what lousy is completely contrary to the present legislation.
Customs have nothing whatsoever to do with UK certification and have no powers to check it. Trading Standards are the named enforcement authority in the Act.

Lets not get into the realms of complete fantasy.

Here is the actual legislation,

8. Obligations of private importers​

A private importer is any natural or legal person (e.g. a company) established in the UK who imports in the course of a non-commercial activity a product from a country outside the UK with the intention of putting it into service for their own use.

The obligations of private importers include:

S 36 If a private importer imports a product that has not previously been placed on the GB market, where the manufacturer has not carried out the relevant conformity assessment procedure, the private importer will have to carry out a post construction assessment to demonstrate conformity with the Regulations, as set out in Schedule 5.

What this means is if you import a boat as a private person, if the manufacturer has carried out CE marking then you dont have to do anything.

I never asked Trading Standards about American boats so cant answer that, but the legislation just says you need to do UK marking only if it's a boat model that has not been placed on the UK market before, and where the manufacturer has not carried out the relative conformity procedure. So, it might well be the case that in addition to European boats which do not require UK certification, American boats might now fall in the same category.

Conformity with the regulations.
I.e. UK RCR. (aka RCD 2013).

Not conformity with older regulations which were in effect when the boat was built.