If you had to choose a <£30k yacht from the market right now, which would it be?

[salad]

Going back to basics. Starting from where you are, buying a boat is probably not the way to go. As I think I might have said before you need to get out in a boat and get some experience as until you have that you have no real idea of firstly whether you like it and secondly what is involved in owning and running a boat of this size. You have come to the conclusion (correctly) that owning a boat remote from where you live that you might use for maybe 30 or 40 days a year costs £8-10k. This is lousy value to find out whether you like it and can manage it - plus getting out if you don't like it is not easy.

So once again I urge you to do a course with a practical element and really consider a charter with the family before you commit to ownership. You have probably, if you have read the responses to your various questions correctly, realised that owning and managing a boat of either your £30k or £100k type is far more demanding on time, energy and money than the actual sailing bit. You will also have realised that the vast majority of owners of substantial sailing boats have worked their way up to where they are now. Sure there are people that jump straight in, but the failure rate is high and those that do succeed are usually in a position to apply all their time and effort to running the boat. Your situation of being remote from anywhere decent to sail, lack of experience and expectations are all against such a strategy working.

Sorry if it seems like preaching, but I have seen so many shattered dreams over the years where people have jumped in too deep - much the same with taking on project boats. People simply underestimate the amount of time energy and money needed in running a decent size cruising boat along an active working and social family life. Fine, if like me you do it once the kids have grown up, and even better when you are retired if you still have the physical and mental capacity!

Nah you're good fella, don't worry.

Actually £10k a year for 30 to 40 days isn't bad value at all. 7 days with Jet2 at some mildew infested all inclusive (local brand drinks only) was £3.5k last I looked. A proper all inclusive at a higher end resort (Ikos), closer to £7k, for a week. Edit: Skiing these days is around £6k for a week including passes, at hotels we stayed at previously for half that. The more I look at it, the more yachting makes sense.

£10k is also roughly about what it costs annually to have a static caravan in a decent location once you work out all the costs and I know which I'd prefer. Sure theres extra maintenance and a time commitment, but the possibility of variety is also somewhat greater!

I cant really work us up to this, due to location. If we lived half an hour from the sea, theres no question I'd get a 26 and learn first. As it is, I just have to go with my gut. I'm tending towards something more in the 38-40 range now, for practical reasons, so I think we may well end up spending a year or two as members of Flexisail or some such club. The real risk, is yacht envy, as I know they do have some bigger ones.

Push comes to shove, even if a person invests £100k in a yacht, they wont lose all of it. Sure, it could be an expensive lesson, but it's not quite the same as betting £100k on the gee gee's in one go.

Life is too short and whilst I do worry at times about many things, I probably know I shouldn't. Not like £100k in the bank is going to do much for anyone at this level of inflation. A few years at 12% and you've halved your money, even if you're getting 3% interest. We all know that inflation is way higher than they are making out, too. 20% would be more accurate imo.

Might as well spend it and try to enjoy ourselves. Who knows, Putin could through his nuclear teddy out and the only thing left of worth will be sailing boats.

 

[salad]

I was only pulling your leg. ?

FWIW, I think a Fulmar would fit the bill very well, if Salad could find one in budget.

I did and it sold almost instantly.

Plan B now.

 

[ylop]

I'll have a look at that link, thank you. I'm not looking for the golf club vibe as such. I like to walk about in mucky cargo shorts and a t-shirt that was last washed during the winter of discontent (that'll be shortly then). Thats if I'm working on vehicles anyway.

i’ve no idea if they even had premises - it was just how I remembered their website and it’s definitely not the same branding / target client now - nor it seems are they wasting time with WAFIs!

Food sounds like a non issue, but if it adds 50% to the cost of the course, its hard to ignore. You do know I'm from Leeds and up here, we're tighter than Mr Motivators jocks.

ok - let me put it differently, within the range of prices of courses in a highly competitive market the cost should not be what determines which school you go to. However if food not included means you are eating out every night that might be a factor - to me understanding the practical limitations of cooking in a galley helped understand what we wanted from our own boat when the time came.

I can't control who'll be on the course

actually you can! I did when I did my day skipper - I filled the other slots with my crew!

and I have a feeling it might be a slightly uncomfortable mix of CC, DS and CS. Not sure what each gets out of that, but I gather thats what the schools tend to do. I think I'd be annoyed if I was on CS and ended up with 3 others on CC

I think it’s actually better. The point of DS and CS is not about controlling the sails (etc) but about controlling the crew. It’s potentially much easier to take 4 other experienced sailors and get them to sail the boat that to get beginners to do it. Unless you only plan to sail with experts managing trainee CC is part of the skippers job.

I've looked at a few places and mostly its horses for courses.

Solent has traffic, Clyde has rocks and more weather. I think I need to be familiar with both.

rocks are easy - they don’t move! The clyde doesn’t really have that many in bits people normally sail - that fun comes when you go round the corner!

we do have weather. Of course you might get great weather or it might be like this week! Certainly learning here in bad weather is a good test if you really want to be based here.

Scotsail was an option, but I want to clarify what training boat they have, because if it's a 47 as I suspect, that might not be of much help to me.

scotsail have about half a dozen different boats I doubt they will commit 100% which one you will be on till they know numbers etc. I get why you’d want to learn on something the same sort of size you are hoping to buy but for CC where you won’t be doing most of the “parking” I wouldn’t worry about learning on a 47 and applying it to something smaller. As someone else said though you’d actually learn more about the sails bit on a dinghy course.

 

[salad]

i’ve no idea if they even had premises - it was just how I remembered their website and it’s definitely not the same branding / target client now - nor it seems are they wasting time with WAFIs!

ok - let me put it differently, within the range of prices of courses in a highly competitive market the cost should not be what determines which school you go to. However if food not included means you are eating out every night that might be a factor - to me understanding the practical limitations of cooking in a galley helped understand what we wanted from our own boat when the time came.

actually you can! I did when I did my day skipper - I filled the other slots with my crew! I think it’s actually better. The point of DS and CS is not about controlling the sails (etc) but about controlling the crew. It’s potentially much easier to take 4 other experienced sailors and get them to sail the boat that to get beginners to do it. Unless you only plan to sail with experts managing trainee CC is part of the skippers job.

I've looked at a few places and mostly its horses for courses.

rocks are easy - they don’t move! The clyde doesn’t really have that many in bits people normally sail - that fun comes when you go round the corner!

we do have weather. Of course you might get great weather or it might be like this week! Certainly learning here in bad weather is a good test if you really want to be based here.

scotsail have about half a dozen different boats I doubt they will commit 100% which one you will be on till they know numbers etc. I get why you’d want to learn on something the same sort of size you are hoping to buy but for CC where you won’t be doing most of the “parking” I wouldn’t worry about learning on a 47 and applying it to something smaller. As someone else said though you’d actually learn more about the sails bit on a dinghy course.

You are a gold mine of information.

I want to respond to each point in turn but it would turn into an essay.

I have noted everything you said and I appreciate every word of it. I'm hoping they will let me park the 47 if I end up on it. Isn't that what insurance is for? lol

 

[lustyd]

I think as a beginner that’s a mistake. If it was your third or fourth boat it might be different. If you’d been sailing on all sorts of other peoples boats for years and helping them fix them it might be different. But you will have no experience to spot a real issue or bodged repair - you’ll only be spending the money on a boat you have agreed to buy, so if it’s really bad it doesn’t cost you £1k it saves you £24k!

having bought a boat without a survey you may find your insurer insists on a survey anyway.

Unfortunately you’re assuming the survey tells you useful things. Usually they don’t. There will be pointless moisture readings, at least one will be “high” with a warning that this could have “consequences” but no detail or evidence it ever has caused them. There will be a statement about how the rigging, engine, heating couldn’t be checked because too high, too dry, too hard. There will be notes about scratches you already saw.
Useful stuff might creep in, but is rare. Get the cheapest survey your insurance demands, finding issues is an owner task.

 

[Adios]

Unfortunately you’re assuming the survey tells you useful things. Usually they don’t. There will be pointless moisture readings, at least one will be “high” with a warning that this could have “consequences” but no detail or evidence it ever has caused them. There will be a statement about how the rigging, engine, heating couldn’t be checked because too high, too dry, too hard. There will be notes about scratches you already saw.
Useful stuff might creep in, but is rare. Get the cheapest survey your insurance demands, finding issues is an owner task.

Theres a fair bit of truth in that, same for a house, "would have checked the attic but there was a cardboard box in the way", but the real benefit I'd get is their methodical way of checking what they do check and their years of experience to know if its a dog or not. As a buyer I find there's too much to take in in the time available, my vision gets somehow clouded and I miss a lot. I'd have to spend a day on the boat to gradually see what a surveyor would see in an hour. A checklist would help of course but still its their job to know the ins and outs of each part of a boat and their eyes are trained more than mine.

 

[Adios]

Near Leeds. The worst place in the world to be interested in yachting.

You said it. I retract everything I said previously. I lived an hour and a half from a previous boat and gave up. Gradually the expense weighed on my mind as I wasn't using it as much as I wanted to. It became a millstone around my neck, turned boating from a joy to a irritation. I'd have been better doing two week long charters a year every year for the same or less cost and having zero stress about it. The fact that you're about equidistant from all the coast will then be a bonus.

 

[ylop]

Unfortunately you’re assuming the survey tells you useful things. Usually they don’t. There will be pointless moisture readings, at least one will be “high” with a warning that this could have “consequences” but no detail or evidence it ever has caused them. There will be a statement about how the rigging, engine, heating couldn’t be checked because too high, too dry, too hard. There will be notes about scratches you already saw.
Useful stuff might creep in, but is rare. Get the cheapest survey your insurance demands, finding issues is an owner task.

man who says to use the cheapest surveyor you can find says surveys are useless!

the OP has never sailed or owned a yacht before - he’s really not well placed to spot stuff or to know if stuff he does spot is typical of a yacht that age/price or if it’s a sign of a problem.

detailed survey here for a 31’ boat at the sort of price point the OP is looking at - no moisture reading nonsense, describes the boat in detail (it’s 18 pages long excluding the appendix with photos of all the bits that needed attention) - the recommendations run to nearly four pages with some detail of the work required, E.g. rather than just “repair crack in rudder” is says “Rudder. Grind back and fill the crack. If this is the source of the rust staining then the crack is through the laminate and, although very small, should be repaired by grinding a small taper, laminating, filling, fairing and then prime and antifoul.”

The issues are listsed as essential before going to sea, or would be good to fix in the future. There are helpful points made about when it would be cheaper just fix / replace now than have to lift out again in the future.

 

[ylop]

Theres a fair bit of truth in that, same for a house, "would have checked the attic but there was a cardboard box in the way",

most house surveys follow lustyd’s approach - the cheapest level the mortgage provider will let them away with. The surveyor is then really working for the mortgage company not for you - ie, what are the issues that might stop them getting their money back.

 

[Tranona]

Unfortunately you’re assuming the survey tells you useful things. Usually they don’t. There will be pointless moisture readings, at least one will be “high” with a warning that this could have “consequences” but no detail or evidence it ever has caused them. There will be a statement about how the rigging, engine, heating couldn’t be checked because too high, too dry, too hard. There will be notes about scratches you already saw.
Useful stuff might creep in, but is rare. Get the cheapest survey your insurance demands, finding issues is an owner task.

This really is not my experience, particularly the last 2 surveys. You are paying the surveyor for his expertise so you need to brief him properly and work with him. why would you pay anything to somebody for just a token to satisfy your insurer when if you work with your surveyor you can get better value for your money. Of course there are lazy and even incompetent surveyors around. Getting a copy of previous surveys and a list of boats surveyed is a good starting point then a detailed brief of what you want. Just asking for a cheap survey to satisfy the insurer will get you just that.

 

[ashtead]

Very interesting thread - given the apparent shortage of boats etc I wonder in a 2 week sailing holiday on Norfolk broads or such like might be a way of seeing if you like life on a 26type boat. What often takes up a lot of time when leaving the boat has to be factored into the return journey and if you haven’t owned a boat these might might be currently unknowns . Added to being in a remote sailing location adds to hassle particularly as sunset hours close in. A flexisail jeanneau option might be worth exploring if you can reach the Soton bs- book a beds on board for the family down south in sept and get along there for a couple of days to quiz all the options . Maybe you will enjoy a sailing charter over winter somewhere nice -2 weeks in the BVI ?

 

[ridgy]

You seem determined to ignore the good advice you're getting so just buy this:
Jeanneau Sun Fast 37 for sale UK, Jeanneau boats for sale, Jeanneau used boat sales, Jeanneau Sailing Yachts For Sale Sun Fast 37 - Apollo Duck

Big enough to spend 60 days a year on and do any sailing you want and modern enough to keep the wife happy.
As a benefit you'll have no trouble selling it when the reality of that commute hits home.

Hire a delivery skipper and accompany them on a leisurely 10 day delivery/training course to Scotland and you'll be good to go.

 

[Tranona]

most house surveys follow lustyd’s approach - the cheapest level the mortgage provider will let them away with. The surveyor is then really working for the mortgage company not for you - ie, what are the issues that might stop them getting their money back.

That is exactly right. Mortgage survey is not for the benefit of the buyer, but to a brief from the lender and is primarily concerned with confirming the value in relation to the loan and identifying any risks that might affect the value.

An insurance survey for a boat is similar and cheaper. The surveyor will have a template of coverage that is different for a survey for the owner or prospective owner. Both the surveys I had ended up with a list of recommendations all of which had been explained to me at the time and if necessary how they might be met. With the boat I bought this forms the basis of the schedule of work and the submission to my insurer when I come to raise the value for insurance.

You get what you pay for only if you are clear about what you want up front.

 

[mrming]

You seem determined to ignore the good advice you're getting so just buy this:
Jeanneau Sun Fast 37 for sale UK, Jeanneau boats for sale, Jeanneau used boat sales, Jeanneau Sailing Yachts For Sale Sun Fast 37 - Apollo Duck

Big enough to spend 60 days a year on and do any sailing you want and modern enough to keep the wife happy.
As a benefit you'll have no trouble selling it when the reality of that commute hits home.

Hire a delivery skipper and accompany them on a leisurely 10 day delivery/training course to Scotland and you'll be good to go.

Looks like a lot of boat for the money that. Good spot.

 

[Frogmogman]

I think you are quite right, Salad, to bite the bullet on having to travel a few hours to get to your boat.

When I bought my boat (in North Brittany), the original plan was to keep her in the Seine Bay; either Deauville or Le Havre. This was based on ease of access (75 mins drive from my house) and availability of berths. We chose Le Havre, because of all tide access and we liked the marina’s facilities and personnel, we also liked the SRH yacht club very much.

A few trips to the boat in Saint Quay later, and we decided it made so much more sense to find a berth anywhere we could in Brittany, whilst putting ourselves on the 4 year waiting list for Saint Quay, accepting that the 4 1/2 hour drive wasn’t such a big deal; after all, the whole point of the thing was to have a lovely time sailing. What’s more, for friends wishing to join us from Paris, the TGV gets you to St Brieuc in 2 hrs 11 mins, which is about the same as the slow old chuff chuff that goes to le Havre takes.

No disrespect to the Seine bay, but the bay of St Brieuc is a sailing paradise. I felt that had we pressed on with plan A, every time I took the boat out, I’d be kicking myself that I was drinking Cava when I could have been drinking vintage Krug.

So I put myself down on various waiting lists and booked a berth at Trebeurden (which had space available). I explained all of this to Yannick, the agent who sold me my boat. Within a couple of days, he came back to me with a solution for keeping the boat in Saint Quay. Happy days.

OK, it’s not “popping down” distance, but we now don’t think twice about loading up the car and heading off down there.

 

[SaltyC]

Hmmmm, there are plenty of very good sailing clubs around Leeds where you can learn the basics of sailing (& swimming when you make a mistake) however for big boats you have to travel. South Coast 5 hours and v expensive, Clyde 4 hours and slightly cheaper. Yorkshire coast 1 1/2 and slightly cheaper again - but not the best cruising area, Suffolk 4 hours travel same cost as Clyde but Swallows and Amazons, West Coast Cumbria, 2 1/2 hours similar costs to Yorkshire.

Living approximately 15 miles from you I had the same dilemma, 4 hours each way was not realistic for weekends, I eventually went for the Cumbrian Coast, tidal access but Iom, Nth Wales, Scotland and Ireland are all available destinations, however as an instructor told another berth holder you have chosen a brutal training ground!

Where to learn? Clyde, mainly deep water tidal but streams generally weak. Scenery brilliant, navigation by mk 1 eyeball can be challenging separating islands from mainland so gives good experience, some traffic so knowledge of coll regs.
Solent - tidal streams and shallow areas make navigation for novices challenging, situational awareness needed for large ships doing handbrake turns around Bramble mean you need to think well ahead lots of small boats around so keeps you on your toes. Slightly warmer than the Clyde??
You pay your money and take your choice.

Boat? As a Newby unless you spend years researching and marine tyre kicking I doubt you will get the right boat first time, your requirements will take years to form in your mind. I am of a generation that started small and 'grew up ' I see the benefits of the smaller boat (30 footish) to start with, easier to handle under power in tight situations and loads on all lines, mooring and sail handling, are lighter for beginners. This will then allow you to form an idea of your ideal boat. Costs also lower, marinas being between £200 to £700 / metre for berthing.
I too would consider an older British boat, lots around and well built, peruse the Westerly Owners Association Web site 'boats for sale ' consider a Konsort? Slightly smaller than Fulmar but not much difference internally. Don't know if Moody, Sadler owners associations have similar.

 

[Adios]

Looks like a lot of boat for the money that. Good spot.

or he could get 10 of these and dot them around the coast For Sale: Trapper 300 - open to offers - GBP 4,550

 

[Adios]

For Sale: Steel sailing yacht 32 feet - GBP 24,995 (apolloduck.net)

I like the look of this and if past recessions are anything to go by live aboard suitable boats will be in demand more than over-nighter plastic types. If I was single and child free I'd be off somewhere on this, hey ho

 

[flaming]

You seem determined to ignore the good advice you're getting so just buy this:
Jeanneau Sun Fast 37 for sale UK, Jeanneau boats for sale, Jeanneau used boat sales, Jeanneau Sailing Yachts For Sale Sun Fast 37 - Apollo Duck

Big enough to spend 60 days a year on and do any sailing you want and modern enough to keep the wife happy.
As a benefit you'll have no trouble selling it when the reality of that commute hits home.

Hire a delivery skipper and accompany them on a leisurely 10 day delivery/training course to Scotland and you'll be good to go.

That's a former Sunsail boat from the Port Solent fleet.

Not that there's anything especially wrong with that, and it looks like it's had quite a bit of money since the Sunsail days, but it's something to be aware of.

 

[Salt'n'shaken]

If I was on the Clyde, had the budget and more importantly, could find one quickly as soon as it came up - I'd have a Hunter Pilot 27.

They don't hang around though, but on the other hand you'd have no problem flogging it if it didn't suit.

Quite a lot of them are in Scotland as the pilot house is so useful. Sail well by all accounts as well.