If you had to choose a <£30k yacht from the market right now, which would it be?

[KREW2]

The only thing guaranteed is, whether you spend £30k or £100k is, you will always find something to upgrade as soon as you get it home.

 

[Frogmogman]

The only thing guaranteed is, whether you spend £30k or £100k is, you will always find something to upgrade as soon as you get it home.

Just as true of a new boat…..

 

[salad]

Unless you're rolling in cash why spend so much? And why such a big boat? A cheaper older boat to get you on the water will do, be less stressful in terms of worrying about damaging it, maneuvering etc and if you lose some money selling it won't hurt as much. Otherwise you might be stuck with a 30k non-essential item in a recession which could prevent you snapping up that boat you really want when the prices come down. First yacht at around 26ft makes the most sense and is plenty big enough for 2 adults and 2 small kids. People used to think going to the Caribbean in sub 30ft boats was normal not long ago. Be inspired: Jester Challenge: One sailor's preparations for a solo adventure - Practical Boat Owner

We have to travel for 4 hours to reach the boat, so it needs to be our accommodation also, hence the size requirement. We can't go any smaller and have any degree of comfort I dont think, even 30ft is pushing it for 4 days based on what I've seen and read.

 

[salad]

where do you live salad?

Near Leeds. The worst place in the world to be interested in yachting. We've decided we will sail in the Clyde after looking at almost every marina in the UK.

 

[salad]

Ooh. I love this game. An excuse to browse yacht porn.

I’m sure Concerto will be along in a minute to tell Salad to buy a westerly Fulmar.

There was one for sale, if the listing is to be believed, it sold in <3 days.

 

[ylop]

Near Leeds. The worst place in the world to be interested in yachting. We've decided we will sail in the Clyde after looking at almost every marina in the UK.

Or you could look at it as the centre of everywhere when you are in the learning chartering phase!

if I was in Leeds and in your shoes I would give some serious thought to the lakes as my early training ground. No pesky tides, less corrosion, lots of accommodation if you decided to go for a week and your chosen boat was too small. Much closer to home. Still picturesque. Less seasickness. If it works small scale in the lakes the clyde is a logical progression.

mid you had a suitable car and home storage then trailer sailing could add a new dimension - lakes for a quick weekend. Clyde or Menai for longer. What I would say though is trailer sailing is a faff and a time suck so if you would mostly sail the same place having the option might be nice - but having the convenience of it being already afloat with the mast up is easier.

 

[salad]

Another vote for the buy now camp. The learning about boats, needs, places and processes helps a lot later. That said, a good condition 30' ish boat does 95% of what most people need for coastal cruising for 30% of the budget you were suggesting. As others have said above a decent condition British boat from the late 80's or 90's (Moody, Sadler, Westerly, etc) can be had for your budget and would be a logical place to start. Fin keels, running rigging that comes back to the cockpit, etc, gives overall a fairly modern feel. In the tradition of the forum I will exhibit confirmation bias and throw a Moody 31 into the hat. Since you mentioned Hanse, take a look at Scotboats who do several seasonal membership options on the Clyde on a Hanse which could be worth a look and help you refine what you like, but might not quite scratch your itch.

Glad I mentioned Hanse!

We've never come across Scotboat before but it's certainly interesting. It might fit us perfectly as we can even hire an instructor for a couple of weeks to start with, which I think would probably be a very good investment. I wonder if there would be a pathway there to attain Day Skipper, as we'd like the option to be able to charter a boat elsewhere.

I'm certainly going to look into that further. The marina fees alone for our own boat will be around £4500-5500, so that immediately gives us 21 days with Scotboats. If we could combine 2 memberships, we might be able to get 41 days for £8k. £8k is what I'd expect the running costs to be for a year of ownership on an older boat, in a good year, assuming marina. School commitments allow us something like 61 max theoretical days, so we're a way off that, but not having all the hassle associated with ownership, especially whilst learning to actually sail, could be extremely beneficial.

Many thanks for this suggestion.

I like the Moody 31 a lot (all Moody actually, but 376 especially), but they are all trading at a high premium at the moment and I can't justify it when I know we need something bigger eventually.

 

[dune16]

Buy what you can afford now and get sailing. I was extremely keen on a 38ft as my first yacht and after an over excited trip to Southampton boat show (some on here called me crazy) purchased a brand new Jeanneau 389 (having only sailed dinghies previously). Luckily, I had a great forumite willing to come sailing with me from delivery day and all went well. Now upgraded to a 44ft boat in the med so the gamble worked out well ?

 

[salad]

Or you could look at it as the centre of everywhere when you are in the learning chartering phase!

if I was in Leeds and in your shoes I would give some serious thought to the lakes as my early training ground. No pesky tides, less corrosion, lots of accommodation if you decided to go for a week and your chosen boat was too small. Much closer to home. Still picturesque. Less seasickness. If it works small scale in the lakes the clyde is a logical progression.

mid you had a suitable car and home storage then trailer sailing could add a new dimension - lakes for a quick weekend. Clyde or Menai for longer. What I would say though is trailer sailing is a faff and a time suck so if you would mostly sail the same place having the option might be nice - but having the convenience of it being already afloat with the mast up is easier.

You may chuckle, as some of my friends have, but I've been learning the basics of sailing on a game called eSail (no affiliation). It's realistic enough for the player to have to keep sails in trim, have varying weather and tide, all sorts. I decided to not follow the tutorial, but try to play based solely on what I'd learned whilst reading here and in books. It worked and I was able to sail about, albeit with flapping sails at times. Still, I made 8 knots on a broad reach and managed a gybe without capsizing. Also learned to heave to. Progress!

It's taught me what all the ropes do, how to use a winch, when to use a handle, the value of a clutch and how not to release it without having the rope on a winch first, quite important it seems. The other nice thing to learn was the procedure to take a reef with a slab main. I made a ton of mistakes so I'm still working on that.

Sure it's a game, but at least I'm not starting out wondering what all the ropes and winches do, and at worst, I could set sail using a jib. We'll find out, because thats exactly what I'll ask an instructor to supervise me doing first time out. Would be really fun to see how close a game is to reality, when starting from zero.

Fresh water would be an option but I need the tide aspect to really learn navigation. I'd like to get it in early as it's so fundamental. The lakes are 3 hours away on a good day which is an advantage, but I think perhaps the hour or so extra is worth it to be able to follow through to coastal cruising proper.

We do have a great tow vehicle, but no storage at home unfortunately, not for a yacht anyway!

 

[salad]

Well this is a bit of a shame but looks like Scotboats is having trading problems of some kind.

 

[xyachtdave]

I wouldn't muck about buying 2 boats if you're planning on upgrading in a couple of years time, just go for it now. It'll take you 2 years too get the boat sorted then you'll start all over again.

I know it's a little over budget, has running back stays, is already under offer and it's a powerful performer aimed at slightly more experienced sailors. Something to grow into.

We start off with luck and no experience and hope to gain the latter before the former runs out.

I love them, they're probably the only boat in that price/size range that excites. You'll need to get those dreadful paw print graphics off the bow and call it something aggressive like 'Prowler' or 'Trooper' though.

Get it bought Salad!

1988 Sigma 38 OOD Racer for sale - YachtWorld

 

[ylop]

You may chuckle, as some of my friends have, but I've been learning the basics of sailing on a game called eSail (no affiliation).

I'm not sure I'm chuckling. I've never tried it, maybe its just the learning tool I've needed to make me a good rather than mediocre sailer. I think its aimed at racers? I was struck on cruising courses how little sail trim tweaking goes on compared to dinghy sailing - 0.1 knots or 1deg higher to the wind really doesn't matter. My Dayskipper instructor told me the two main reasons people fail Yachmaster Practicals are 1. lack of wind awareness - I'm not sure you can get that behind a PC unless you've wired the fans up to blow across your face! 2. Managing the crew - I'm not sure how that works in the game but you might be falling into the trap of many (usually male) yacht owning skipper - they do all the sailing, barking orders like they are clicking a mouse and meanwhile your crew are terrified, hungry, bored, or cold. What I would be very wary of is that your screw ups here result in "game over" or something - but in real life could seriously damage you or the boat.

It's taught me what all the ropes do, how to use a winch, when to use a handle, the value of a clutch and how not to release it without having the rope on a winch first, quite important it seems. The other nice thing to learn was the procedure to take a reef with a slab main. I made a ton of mistakes so I'm still working on that.

Mmm... did it really teach you how to do those things? I'm not claiming to be an expert by any means but I think you need to feel it to know a lot of things. e.g. my first day on a yacht I put a £500 tear in my friend's dad's mainsail. I was on the main halyard told him it was stuck and he told me I wasn't being man enough. Turned out there was still a reef left in (before single line reefing was common)! As skipper you need to spot other people doing silly things too - like someone who's not been out for a year putting the line round the winch the wrong way. Lots of "learning the RYA way" is about learning drills and routines - they may even seem over simplified, but always following the same steps, in the same order to put a reef in means its calm and controlled. Really - go on the course. You risk being the guy on the course who already knows too much so doesn't learn for 90% of the time. The alternative is you skip the really basic courses - this is a massive mistake - then you risk being the guy who is on a dayskipper course asked to take a line ashore to a cleat with it going over the top of the guardwires or who struggles to steer a course to compass because it can't really be the same on a screen as standing in a rolling cockpit. Your dayskipper instructor isn't expecting to teach you how to do these things.

In terms of tides, you can still learn all the theory whilst learning to sail on the lakes. There are at least 3 different groups of skills you need to learn to become a good skipper (1) Actually sailing, you are getting the idea what this entails from your game now you need to apply it in real weather in a real boat; (2) Navigation - you can learn this remotely - perhaps your game can even help; (3) Managing the boat - making sure people are safe, well fed, warm, comfortable, securely at anchor, tied up correctly, with the right sea cocks open, AND when stuff goes wrong (for certainly it will) that you are or appear to be calmly in control. Final thought on this - it will be so much easier on board if both you are your wife do all the training. Having the option to leave any of the tasks to your wife makes life a lot easier - its also very reassuring to be able to discuss options when problems arrive rather than get a blank look and "I just do what you tell me".

Well this is a bit of a shame but looks like Scotboats is having trading problems of some kind.

Someone in N Wales was doing something similar I think - it might not be where you were planning to go but as a 1yr deep dive intro it might work well whilst you are hunting (and actually wouldn't tie up "that much" capital if you stumbled across a great boat in April.

 

[salad]

I'm not sure I'm chuckling. I've never tried it, maybe its just the learning tool I've needed to make me a good rather than mediocre sailer. I think its aimed at racers? I was struck on cruising courses how little sail trim tweaking goes on compared to dinghy sailing - 0.1 knots or 1deg higher to the wind really doesn't matter. My Dayskipper instructor told me the two main reasons people fail Yachmaster Practicals are 1. lack of wind awareness - I'm not sure you can get that behind a PC unless you've wired the fans up to blow across your face! 2. Managing the crew - I'm not sure how that works in the game but you might be falling into the trap of many (usually male) yacht owning skipper - they do all the sailing, barking orders like they are clicking a mouse and meanwhile your crew are terrified, hungry, bored, or cold. What I would be very wary of is that your screw ups here result in "game over" or something - but in real life could seriously damage you or the boat.


Mmm... did it really teach you how to do those things? I'm not claiming to be an expert by any means but I think you need to feel it to know a lot of things. e.g. my first day on a yacht I put a £500 tear in my friend's dad's mainsail. I was on the main halyard told him it was stuck and he told me I wasn't being man enough. Turned out there was still a reef left in (before single line reefing was common)! As skipper you need to spot other people doing silly things too - like someone who's not been out for a year putting the line round the winch the wrong way. Lots of "learning the RYA way" is about learning drills and routines - they may even seem over simplified, but always following the same steps, in the same order to put a reef in means its calm and controlled. Really - go on the course. You risk being the guy on the course who already knows too much so doesn't learn for 90% of the time. The alternative is you skip the really basic courses - this is a massive mistake - then you risk being the guy who is on a dayskipper course asked to take a line ashore to a cleat with it going over the top of the guardwires or who struggles to steer a course to compass because it can't really be the same on a screen as standing in a rolling cockpit. Your dayskipper instructor isn't expecting to teach you how to do these things.

In terms of tides, you can still learn all the theory whilst learning to sail on the lakes. There are at least 3 different groups of skills you need to learn to become a good skipper (1) Actually sailing, you are getting the idea what this entails from your game now you need to apply it in real weather in a real boat; (2) Navigation - you can learn this remotely - perhaps your game can even help; (3) Managing the boat - making sure people are safe, well fed, warm, comfortable, securely at anchor, tied up correctly, with the right sea cocks open, AND when stuff goes wrong (for certainly it will) that you are or appear to be calmly in control. Final thought on this - it will be so much easier on board if both you are your wife do all the training. Having the option to leave any of the tasks to your wife makes life a lot easier - its also very reassuring to be able to discuss options when problems arrive rather than get a blank look and "I just do what you tell me".

Someone in N Wales was doing something similar I think - it might not be where you were planning to go but as a 1yr deep dive intro it might work well whilst you are hunting (and actually wouldn't tie up "that much" capital if you stumbled across a great boat in April.

It's quite detailed in the approach (to a novice like me). You skipper and have two additional sets of "hands" which you can control from the helm. There are options to look closely at a specific winch or lines. The game responds to actions in a specific way and certainly wont cover all eventualities, but for example, if you and forget to secure the mainsheet on a winch and open the clutch, the boom will swing violently across. So, important lesson learned there. 4 turns on the self tailing winch before opening the clutch.

The sails can and do go out of trim and it tells you both visually and with sound. There are different types of flapping sounds depending on whats wrong. The mainsail has tell tales, something else I learned how to use at a basic level.

To answer your question, whether it has taught me correctly remains to be seen as I can't be sure until I try these things in real life. But if you asked me the basics of how to use the jib or how and when to raise the main, or to take a reef, I'd be able to do it, I think. A week ago, I hadn't the slightest clue how to do either. I'm certain I wouldn't get it perfect or anywhere close, but it's a start.

The game is sandbox in nature so many tasks are repetitive, which is a good thing at my level, but does have racing modes and I think even online racing. I'm nowhere near doing that yet. The next thing I wish to try is anchoring and I think the game includes checks of the correct ratio's and so on for you to calculate scope.

I hope that if I know what lines are for what purpose, it will let me focus a little more on other real world factors. For £27, can't really go wrong.

 

[salad]

Someone in N Wales was doing something similar I think - it might not be where you were planning to go but as a 1yr deep dive intro it might work well whilst you are hunting (and actually wouldn't tie up "that much" capital if you stumbled across a great boat in April.

I've found Flexisail down south and it's a serious option. Do you happen to have the name of the one in north wales as its much closer to us?

I'm currently trying to decide where to go and do competant crew. Probably next month.

Scotsail include food at 5:1 ratio, Solent Training exclude food and are at 4:1 ratio. Our plan is to sail from Largs, so ideally i'd train up there, but Flexisail is down south, so I'm not sure what my best options are. I gather Scottish sailing is far more involved so I may end up training up there, then having a go at Flexisail down south for a year. Maybe I should do both. It's crowded in the Solent so I think I'd want training on location before sailing there, day skipper ticket or not.

 

[mrming]

It's quite detailed in the approach (to a novice like me). You skipper and have two additional sets of "hands" which you can control from the helm. There are options to look closely at a specific winch or lines. The game responds to actions in a specific way and certainly wont cover all eventualities, but for example, if you and forget to secure the mainsheet on a winch and open the clutch, the boom will swing violently across. So, important lesson learned there. 4 turns on the self tailing winch before opening the clutch.

The sails can and do go out of trim and it tells you both visually and with sound. There are different types of flapping sounds depending on whats wrong. The mainsail has tell tales, something else I learned how to use at a basic level.

To answer your question, whether it has taught me correctly remains to be seen as I can't be sure until I try these things in real life. But if you asked me the basics of how to use the jib or how and when to raise the main, or to take a reef, I'd be able to do it, I think. A week ago, I hadn't the slightest clue how to do either. I'm certain I wouldn't get it perfect or anywhere close, but it's a start.

The game is sandbox in nature so many tasks are repetitive, which is a good thing at my level, but does have racing modes and I think even online racing. I'm nowhere near doing that yet. The next thing I wish to try is anchoring and I think the game includes checks of the correct ratio's and so on for you to calculate scope.

I hope that if I know what lines are for what purpose, it will let me focus a little more on other real world factors. For £27, can't really go wrong.

Weirdly, I make video games for a living and have been sailing since I was a small kid, so for once I feel I’m qualified to comment. I even once had something to do with a (different) sailing video game. No harm in what you’re doing (could be seen as a modern compliment to reading a sailing theory book), but you’ll have to wait till you go sailing for real to learn the “feel” of the boat. Incidentally that’s best done in a dinghy so if you really want to learn the “best practice” way, get some dinghy sailing lessons. They’re not expensive and the experience gained will pay off throughout your sailing life.

 

[ylop]

I've found Flexisail down south and it's a serious option.

have a look at Boat and yacht share - Pure Latitude | Boat Club - no connection just found when trying to refresh my memory to answer this

Do you happen to have the name of the one in north wales as its much closer to us?

ah it seems I’m out of touch… I think it was the marineclub.com but I remember them having a rather sophisticated branding (like a posh golf resort / country club) and this seems to be rather more in your face and looks like it’s all small powerboats. Perhaps new owners? Perhaps market forces that the ad hoc users want fast and quick to learn.

I'm currently trying to decide where to go and do competant crew. Probably next month.

Scotsail include food at 5:1 ratio, Solent Training exclude food and are at 4:1 ratio. Our plan is to sail from Largs, so ideally i'd train up there, but Flexisail is down south, so I'm not sure what my best options are. I gather Scottish sailing is far more involved so I may end up training up there, then having a go at Flexisail down south for a year. Maybe I should do both. It's crowded in the Solent so I think I'd want training on location before sailing there, day skipper ticket or not.

I think if your decision is based on whether it includes food or not you are probably making it on the wrong basis! Student ratios probably matter more - but even they might be too simple - would you learn more as 4 comp crew all at the same stage or 3 comp crew and 2 day skipper candidates? Some of that is probably pot luck about who is on the course, but must also vary from instructor to instructor. Is Scottish sailing more involved? For comp crew I doubt it makes any difference. i think there is a lot to be said for sailing different areas on different boats and with different instructors. Did you look at other schools in Scotland? It won’t matter if you start in Greenock, Rhu, Kip etc you’ll sail 70% of the same waters over the week.

 

[salad]

have a look at Boat and yacht share - Pure Latitude | Boat Club - no connection just found when trying to refresh my memory to answer this ah it seems I’m out of touch… I think it was the marineclub.com but I remember them having a rather sophisticated branding (like a posh golf resort / country club) and this seems to be rather more in your face and looks like it’s all small powerboats. Perhaps new owners? Perhaps market forces that the ad hoc users want fast and quick to learn.


I think if your decision is based on whether it includes food or not you are probably making it on the wrong basis! Student ratios probably matter more - but even they might be too simple - would you learn more as 4 comp crew all at the same stage or 3 comp crew and 2 day skipper candidates? Some of that is probably pot luck about who is on the course, but must also vary from instructor to instructor. Is Scottish sailing more involved? For comp crew I doubt it makes any difference. i think there is a lot to be said for sailing different areas on different boats and with different instructors. Did you look at other schools in Scotland? It won’t matter if you start in Greenock, Rhu, Kip etc you’ll sail 70% of the same waters over the week.

I'll have a look at that link, thank you. I'm not looking for the golf club vibe as such. I like to walk about in mucky cargo shorts and a t-shirt that was last washed during the winter of discontent (that'll be shortly then). Thats if I'm working on vehicles anyway.

Food sounds like a non issue, but if it adds 50% to the cost of the course, its hard to ignore. You do know I'm from Leeds and up here, we're tighter than Mr Motivators jocks.

I can't control who'll be on the course and I have a feeling it might be a slightly uncomfortable mix of CC, DS and CS. Not sure what each gets out of that, but I gather thats what the schools tend to do. I think I'd be annoyed if I was on CS and ended up with 3 others on CC covering material I'd done 100 times, but don't want to judge until I've been on it.

I've looked at a few places and mostly its horses for courses.

About Scottish sailing being more involved, it wasn't about the course, per say, but I was just perhaps thinking I should get used to the conditions up there ASAP, so the more training the better. Solent has traffic, Clyde has rocks and more weather. I think I need to be familiar with both.

Scotsail was an option, but I want to clarify what training boat they have, because if it's a 47 as I suspect, that might not be of much help to me.

 

[Concerto]

Ooh. I love this game. An excuse to browse yacht porn.

I’m sure Concerto will be along in a minute to tell Salad to buy a westerly Fulmar.

In previous threads I have recommended a variety of different manufacturers.

Behind the scenes I have had a lot of PM's with salad, including about marinas and costings to run a boat, hence there is no need for further comment from me in this thread.

 

[Tranona]

Going back to basics. Starting from where you are, buying a boat is probably not the way to go. As I think I might have said before you need to get out in a boat and get some experience as until you have that you have no real idea of firstly whether you like it and secondly what is involved in owning and running a boat of this size. You have come to the conclusion (correctly) that owning a boat remote from where you live that you might use for maybe 30 or 40 days a year costs £8-10k. This is lousy value to find out whether you like it and can manage it - plus getting out if you don't like it is not easy.

So once again I urge you to do a course with a practical element and really consider a charter with the family before you commit to ownership. You have probably, if you have read the responses to your various questions correctly, realised that owning and managing a boat of either your £30k or £100k type is far more demanding on time, energy and money than the actual sailing bit. You will also have realised that the vast majority of owners of substantial sailing boats have worked their way up to where they are now. Sure there are people that jump straight in, but the failure rate is high and those that do succeed are usually in a position to apply all their time and effort to running the boat. Your situation of being remote from anywhere decent to sail, lack of experience and expectations are all against such a strategy working.

Sorry if it seems like preaching, but I have seen so many shattered dreams over the years where people have jumped in too deep - much the same with taking on project boats. People simply underestimate the amount of time energy and money needed in running a decent size cruising boat along an active working and social family life. Fine, if like me you do it once the kids have grown up, and even better when you are retired if you still have the physical and mental capacity!

 

[Frogmogman]

In previous threads I have recommended a variety of different manufacturers.

IBehind the scenes I have had a lot of PM's with salad, including about marinas and costings to run a boat, hence there is no need for further comment from me in this thread.

I was only pulling your leg. ?

FWIW, I think a Fulmar would fit the bill very well, if Salad could find one in budget.