I am amazed!

[longjohnsilver]

At the number of fellow boaters, both motor and saily who would welcome the abolition of the red diesel concession to leisure users. What chance do we have of maintaining a viable leisure boating industry if we as boaters cannot unite to try and prevent this money grabbing bunch of thieves raising yet more in the way of taxes.

Those people with petrol boats almost certainly knew the alternative was a more expensive and inherently safer and more reliable diesel engined boat. They chose to spend less on the boat knowing fuel would cost more. That's a choice we all had to make. Many of us have had petrol powered boats in the past, but no way would I want to go back to one.

If red diesel gets the chop then I predict that not only will boat values take an immediate hit but also many people working in the marine trade will also suffer, fewer boats doing less mileage = less servicing and repair work = fewer jobs.

Still, look on the bright side, my mates on the lifeboat will have more shouts to boats running out of petrol as they search in vain for quay side petrol pumps! /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

Even those with smaller petrol boats eventually tend to move onto bigger boats, usually diesel engined for economic and safety reasons. Let's have a united stand against what might happen. I know a number of very experienced but not so rich motor boaters who will give up if this change comes about, and that would be sad to see.

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[Planty]

Hear, Hear, well said! It seems to be "lets roll over and die!", I'm sure if a lot of us had taken that attitude in our careers we would never have been within a sniff of owning a boat, so why adopt that attitude over this?? Beats me.

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[BarryH]

Now theres the problem. Basically the British are spineless. Theres been one protest over fuel prices in the past. It didn't, as the papers said, bring the country to a standstill. Evereyone just used it as an oppotunity to skyve off work for a week or so. If people hadn't "panic bought" petrol there would have been enough to go round. Anyhow, thats beside the point. Instead of people having ago at magazine editors, how about organizing blockades of ports with boats. If the french fisherman can do it I damn sure a a large number of private craft can do it.
Pick a time where its going to cause the most disruption. Block the entrance to Dover and you'll bring Kent to a standstill and probably get news coverage as well.

This all smacks of the hand gun ban a few years ago. Lots of people making noises but no one would stand up to be counted in any great number. Now Its not going to effect me in running costs as much as other people cos I don't use diesel.....yet. This board would be a good medium to organize action and demo's
So all you diesel users that are making lots of noise. You gonna do something about it and stand up ands be counted and your voices heard. Or are you going to carry on whinging and moaning about the government you elected and do bugger all about it?

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[Planty]

Give me a Time and a Date, see you there, might take a slagging but get the whole argument about all Fuel "Taxes/ Escalators" into the open at least!

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[Deleted User YDKXO]

What kind of news coverage? Maybe something along the lines of "Millionaire boat owners block ferries in campaign for cheap fuel"
I dont think the editor of the Sun is going to be writing any kind editorials about that one and I dont think the bloke sitting in the ferry queue in his Mondeo with a caravan behind and a backseat full of kids is going to be all that sympathetic either


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[steverow]

Hear Hear to all and to subsequent threads.
We have to start action NOW lobby MP's etc etc.
Sailboaters just seem to see it as a way to get at us stinkies, without realising that it will affect the WHOLE marine leisure industry. Its not just about Fuel. It surely is up to the RYA and magazines to unite us all sensibly.
They will be sniggering on the other side of their faces when they get too old and decrepid to sail and they find themselves looking at motorboats.
Any port with a ferry service would be fair game and for maximum attention, usually hits the news straight away.
However, Im sure that they wouldnt be able to crank the RD price straight up to the level of Road fuel. The shock would be far too great for the industry to absorb.
The value of diesel boats would plummet, both new and s/h.
There are obviously very real problems with selling and distributing two tax levels of diesel. It would have to be a different colour for starters making ports/marinas
have two tanks and pumps... .very expensive.
One way round it would be to stoke up the level of VAT for leisure use to something horrific whilst keeping commercial use at 5%. That way the marinas collect the tax and do the paperwork...no need for extra tanks etc. OK they'll be some dodgy deals going on..but in reality how many marina based boats are going to sail round to tiny bays at the dead of night to fuel up from some farmers rusty bowser?
Ssshhh dont tell the government.
The basic problem is that the Marine industry has been built on cheap Diesel. The goverment cant just turn round and make the fuel four times more expensive. They surely would have to stage it say over ten years to allow us all to adjust.
Lets all hope that common sense prevails and they can keep the derogation, after all we are an Island.

Steve.




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[longjohnsilver]

Yes agree with most of wot you say, I'm sure the RYA will put up some sort of a fight, but it seems that many sailors are on our side, just a shame that not all sailors or more surprisingly motorboaters are not supporting us.

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[rickp]

Thats somwhat defeatist Mike. Surely we should take the politicians approach and spin the story another way - concentrating on the loss of jobs, other revenues etc. A job for Prentice McCabe

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[steverow]

Raggies have an excuse, for whatever reason they dont particularly like us...
I suppose its a tribal thingy.
As for motorboaters what possible reason could they have for wanting to pay four times as much for their fuel..very strange.

I know we use the road fuel analagy a lot, but really any increase in tax would have to reflect the efficiency of the transport medium ie distance covered relative to fuel usage..and lets face it pushing through water aint very efficient.
In my previous post I calculated a round trip to Padstow (150 miles) will cost me £400 and that is going to be unsustainable for me I'm afraid.
I could afford at the very most £200 and that would be pushing it after saving for weeks. We've sunk a lot of what we have into purchasing and refurbishing our boat and probably stupidly did all our calculations three years ago when we started
looking for a vessel on Diesel at around 25 to 30 p per litre.
I wouldnt even begin to comptemplate the horror of the cost to go from Swansea to France. Would have to be close to £1500 to get there and back plus do some cruising as well. Thats a weeks Med cruise on the QE2!!, and I know which one SWMBO is going to prefer!!.


I dont think I'd mind paying light dues, that seems common sense if we all use it we should all pay according to our length perhaps, but fuel X 4 no way.

Lets hope that someone sees some sense and doesnt destroy our increasingly buoyant leisure marine industry.

Steve.




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[Dave1258]

Rebated gas oil, also known as red diesel, is liable for duty at the rate of 3.13 pence per litre and is used in excepted vehicles inc boats, and as a heating and industrial fuel. Assuming the current level of use, raising the rate of duty on gas oil to that applying to (a) standard diesel and (b) ultra low sulphur diesel would raise additional revenues of £3.5 billion and £3.3 billion respectively. In practice, the additional revenue would be significantly less than this because a fifteenfold increase in the duty rate would reduce the demand for rebated gas oil.
If they don't increase the duty on the red stuff, what's next .... emission tests for boaters!


<hr width=100% size=1>Someday my ship will come in, and with my luck I'll be at the airport!.

 

[kghowe]

Totally agree with your comments my only worry is that the common sense you talk about isn't always that common!!


Lets hope though
KGH

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[Planty]

Taking up the raggie point, what would they have to say when for once a prediction comes right? Stinkies migrate from our hobby at a rate of knots, and all the Marinas then decide Marina operations are no longer viable at current rates. I predict they would close piecemeal or hike the price so high Raggies have no way of affording their hobby either.

Most Marina sites are prime real estate and would very quickly be used to realise capital for their owners and no longer "boat facilities" just lovely, water side sites. Look at Ocean Village for an example right now. As I understand it they are about to lose the main boaters car parks there as "Planning Gain" for a Hotel on Site! Fair enough as the Hotel then has Car Parking, eventually, (God knows the current development is taking long enough) but BOATERS needs were not high on the Agends there, were they? Raggies will lose out by this, and as for the motor boaters perhaps some are far better off than we thought.

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[MedDreamer]

Kim - Diesel is clogging the Forum

This is obviously going to be an ongoing topic.

I don't really think that anyone on here supports the removal of the tax concession on diesel, I think the posts on here that appear negative are just reflecting the real world of this government. However I do get irritated by those who post concerned for the future of the UK marine industry when really it is self interest that they are protecting

As this is going to run and run and affects boaters on all the forums, can't Kim set up a separate forum for views to be heard

Why not include petrol for leisure craft as well? Might as well go for a full house


<hr width=100% size=1>The Dream is Alive

 

[Alistairr]

Re: Kim - Diesel is clogging the Forum

Finally someone talking Sense.



<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://arweb.co.uk/argallery/alistair?&page=1> My Pictures, Look if you want.</A>

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

No way

That simply is'nt going to happen. There might be a few who give up boating but those will be the less committed boaters anyway. So, a bit less pressure on berths in the Solent might result which will actually be a good thing because this will serve to hold prices down, not push them up as you have suggested.
Dont forget also that our raggie friends use diesel as well, in fact most of them seem to motor everywhere, so any hike in fuel prices affects them too. There might be one or two neanderthals amongst them that will be secretly hoping for a fuel price rise to curtail motorboating but I bet the majority of them do not welcome it any more than we do


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[Kevin]

Im not sure that doing that will help look at the situation on Windermere and the proposed speed limit, loads of jobs directly and indirectly linked to boating and leisure and business in general are on the line and yet it did nothing.


Im not sure an increase in fuel duty will affect the majority of boaters using their boats, the government know that and IMHO thats why they think they can get away with it and grasp more tax from us. last thing they want is people to stop using them and i think they are confident that people wont stop.

kevin

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[BrendanS]

Re: Kim - Diesel is clogging the Forum

<<Why not include petrol for leisure craft as well? Might as well go for a full house
>>

but petrol for leisure craft is already taxed at full whack. There is no red petrol. Unless I'm completely mis-understanding your point.

<hr width=100% size=1>Utinam logica falsa tuam philisophiam totam suffodiant

 

[Trevethan]

As others have said duty is paid on red diesel, albeit much less than road fuels...

I accept that the higher duty on vehicle fuel because it is supposed to go on maintaining and improving the transport net work -- duty is still to high, but at least it is supposed to be spent on teh roads and benfit those that pay teh tax. (OK I know it doesn;t really work like that but....)

However what do I get an increase in red diesel duty?

We already have to pay marine licences, harbour dues, etc -- there is very little in the way of maintenance needed to the ocea -- it seems to re-surface itself twice a day all by itself....

An increase in dutywould be just another cynical attempt by the govt to extract money from those seen rich enough to afford it --



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[chriscallender]

Re: No way

You say (probably correctly) that raggies motor everywhere.

However, as an example, it takes something like 1/4 of my 20 gallon diesel tank to do a crossing of the English channel with the trusty 20HP motor. Lets say 25-30 litres to be generous. Currently that costs something like £8-£10. In the future it might become something like £30 or £40 for a one way crossing of the channel. Definitely a tiny part of the cost of owning the boat - the cost of fuel for the year will still be much less than maintaining the sails and rigging for instance.

So yes, I don't want the government to get any extra taxes at all from me, I feel like I pay enough already. And I do think we should stick together as we are all using the same sea and the next legislation that the governement brings in might affect me more. But at the end of the day, my reasons for opposing this extra tax aren't really that much based on money.

Chris

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[longjohnsilver]

Re: Kim - Diesel is clogging the Forum

Ah well so be it. Can't win em all.

When's the speed ban due on Windemere?

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