How would spend £200K and £1400 per month to buy a bluewater yacht to liveaboard and sail / maybe circumnavigate for years to come?

[Tranona]

I thought the quals would be ok if you were getting work, like from an agency, from the same country they were issued?

Qualifications for liveaboard cruisers is mostly a non issue. There is no legal requirement to have any qualifications to skipper a UK registered boat essentially anywhere in the world, but many find it useful to have the formal International Certificate of Competence (ICC) which you will get with a Day Skipper or with a stand alone assessment. You are unlikely to ever be asked for it as its primary use is for chartering or using the European inland waterways. However as billskip suggests if you become resident in another country you may become subject to their local rules, although in reality very few countries actually do this unless you want to operate commercially. In some cases a UK issued commercial ticket may be acceptable.

There are 2 sides to qualifications, first is becoming competent to a level for your own satisfaction and the second is to demonstrate that competence to others. Many of us have been through the theory side of the qualification (in my case it was the old Yachtmaster Offshore) but not done the practical. In that situation you can take the stand alone assessment for ICC which covers only a tiny fraction of the RYA qualification - just knowing how to point the boat in the right direction, handle it in the basic situations such as man overboard and berthing plus the basic rules of the road. Usually done in a day on your boat with an assessor. In my case with our club assessor a morning out on the boat with a crew and a series of questions plus inspection of my passage plans and log books for past passages. There is a separate multiple choice test for endorsement to use the inland waterways.

 

[ylop]

That you’ve sailed for 30 years and never crossed an ocean surprises me, but then, people are different and have different objectives. It’s no big deal.

I don’t think I’ll be particularly unusual in that regard. I might sail across an ocean one day - but I don’t see it as a logical progression from the sort of sailing I do.

I look forward to getting back to speaking about boats.

One bit of advice I would give is during your learning process (whatever that may be) try to get as much experience of as many different boats as possible. It’s theoretically possible to do zero to hero course and only ever sail one type of boat. If you then buy a very different boat you’ll feel like you’ve gone backwards whilst you “relearn” the other boat. It will also make it easier to work out what to buy - which might be nothing to do with its “blue water” characteristics, and might be something like headroom, or galley layout, or engine access.

I found VHF very useful, it's a legal requirement

I have a vague recollection that there is no need if you have the pilot’s equivalent- worth checking, although there’s enough differences in kit, conventions etc to make it possibly worth doing anyway.

Day Skipper is a good level to aim for if you can already sail a dinghy

One thing to be aware of is what “sail a dinghy” means. Depending on the boat, locations etc, dinghy sailors may have no experience of topping lifts, travellers, winches and windlasses, clipping on, docking with springs, safely slipping lines, even just getting lines the right side of guard rails, backstays, depowering the main to gybe. If you were the only DS candidate who had missed out CC you might find yourself feeling out your depth with even simply things like flushing the toilet!

and you are capable enough to take on the nav side of things. Which I suspect you will be.

I’m sure he can learn that quickly (and probably quicker that the RYA standard 5 day expectations) but presumably tides, anchor scope, cardinal marks etc are not standard for flying!

I wouldn't be in a rush to do further courses at this stage. You'll learn more buying a boat and getting stuck in.

The one possible addition would be the diesel engine course depending on how familiar you are with engines in general.

 

[billskip]

Were you doing any work in those 6 years? And going by what’s been said here, did you ever wish the boat was <12m?

No, basically a mirror image of your situation, divorce, a failed relationship, (bought another house and lived witha a partner, ) didn't work, said fek it sold up and set sail, lived on proceeds.

<12..m?
No I wished it was >16 meter, but it was fine really.

I thought the quals would be ok if you were getting work, like from an agency, from the same country they were issued?

Yes you need the quals for work, I was really thinking if you did you rya quals, and then sailed off in the sunset to become a resident in another land you should be mindful of the resident/quals status.

Investigation into the possibility of international recognise quais not affected by resident status ( if they exist) would be worth investigating.

 

[Rob44]

Qualifications for liveaboard cruisers is mostly a non issue. There is no legal requirement to have any qualifications to skipper a UK registered boat essentially anywhere in the world, but many find it useful to have the formal International Certificate of Competence (ICC) which you will get with a Day Skipper or with a stand alone assessment. You are unlikely to ever be asked for it as its primary use is for chartering or using the European inland waterways. However as billskip suggests if you become resident in another country you may become subject to their local rules, although in reality very few countries actually do this unless you want to operate commercially. In some cases a UK issued commercial ticket may be acceptable.

There are 2 sides to qualifications, first is becoming competent to a level for your own satisfaction and the second is to demonstrate that competence to others. Many of us have been through the theory side of the qualification (in my case it was the old Yachtmaster Offshore) but not done the practical. In that situation you can take the stand alone assessment for ICC which covers only a tiny fraction of the RYA qualification - just knowing how to point the boat in the right direction, handle it in the basic situations such as man overboard and berthing plus the basic rules of the road. Usually done in a day on your boat with an assessor. In my case with our club assessor a morning out on the boat with a crew and a series of questions plus inspection of my passage plans and log books for past passages. There is a separate multiple choice test for endorsement to use the inland waterways.

Thanks Tranona. I think I may have come across one or two articles or clips where it was implied a YM Offshore qual would help facilitate work as a delivery Captain? That it was almost considered essential? Although maybe I read that on a course providers site…

 

[ylop]

with the sort of money you were talking about spending if you really want to go ocean sailing - it might be worth considering a leg of the clipper race. It won’t come with the qualifications to operate commercially but as baptisms of fire go…

 

[ylop]

Thanks Tranona. I think I may have come across one or two articles or clips where it was implied a YM Offshore qual would help facilitate work as a delivery Captain? That it was almost considered essential? Although maybe I read that on a course providers site…

have you looked at the day rates for a YM Offshore sail doing a delivery? Have you looked at the cost of leaving your boat somewhere safe whilst you do a delivery? Add in the cost of maintaining your commercial status and unless you are both fairly busy and clever about it - you could lose money!

 

[Sea Change]

Day skipper sounds like a good place to start. I believe there’s an online theory course of a few hundred pounds that goes with it?

I've just done YM theory online. I would suggest doing it in a classroom instead if you can. Online was the only option that worked for me due to time and location.

I did DS theory in a classroom and found that much more satisfactory.

 

[Sea Change]

have you looked at the day rates for a YM Offshore sail doing a delivery? Have you looked at the cost of leaving your boat somewhere safe whilst you do a delivery? Add in the cost of maintaining your commercial status and unless you are both fairly busy and clever about it - you could lose money!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it the cost to maintain commercial status is:
- annual ENG1 medical (£115)
- first aid, either STCW (c.£150/5yrs) or RYA (c.£100/3yrs)

Does sea survival need a refresher? Mine doesn't have an expiry date.

 

[Rob44]

with the sort of money you were talking about spending if you really want to go ocean sailing - it might be worth considering a leg of the clipper race. It won’t come with the qualifications to operate commercially but as baptisms of fire go…

Have you done this?

 

[Rob44]

have you looked at the day rates for a YM Offshore sail doing a delivery? Have you looked at the cost of leaving your boat somewhere safe whilst you do a delivery? Add in the cost of maintaining your commercial status and unless you are both fairly busy and clever about it - you could lose money!

Yes and yes. I looked at popular marinas in Tahiti as an example location but couldn’t find a marina charging even half the worst delivery rates I could find
What employment would you suggest instead?

 

[Dellquay13]

I think another option would be;

1, Start with a 5day competent crew course, to get you going on the day to day ways of running a basic boat, for about £450-500. Here is the nearest training you will find to ‘how to sail’, higher level courses such as DS or YM focus more on navigation etc, expecting you to already know how to do the basic sailing.

2, Buy a well maintained sub 30’ boat for less than £10K. Think Ford Fiesta owned by the same grandad for the last 20+ years. There are loads around, it’s a buyers market (it’s also a whole new thread, let’s not go down that rabbit hole here!). Consider this boat as disposable, almost like a cost of rent or training, and expect to lose half your purchase price for a quick sale at the end. Moor it somewhere with all tide access, convenient to get lots of use, hopefully cheap but prioritise ease of getting out to sea over expense. This may mean driving some distance to the boat (not your nearest bit of the Bristol Channel, somewhere like N. Wales, SW Wales, SW England for you in the W Mids?). Do not spend any unnecessary money on upgrades etc and sail it as much as you can for 1-2 years, while still working. This will be your time when you really learn how to sail, getting the miles under your belt a weekend at a time. Use this boat as much as you can, all year round even when the weather isn’t good, as long as you are safe.
You will also get a much clearer view of your end goal. Now you will be ready to get some higher qualifications if you think you still need them.

3, Buy your new boat, list your training boat with a broker at a knockdown price and sail away.

 

[ylop]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it the cost to maintain commercial status is:
- annual ENG1 medical (£115)
- first aid, either STCW (c.£150/5yrs) or RYA (c.£100/3yrs)

+ application fee itself. (£50)
+ cost and time of finding and getting to an ENG1 medical from Tahiti or wherever he happens to be, and finding
+ time to do the first aid course refresher. So realistically 2 days + £300-350
If you are actually using it a lot, then amortised over 5 yrs that’s not significant. If you were hoping to do one delivery a year for a little extra cash then it’s significant. The initial registration is the same, plus the PPR course, sea survival course (where he likely already has similar training but without the right logos on it).

Does sea survival need a refresher? Mine doesn't have an expiry date.

Depends which one you do! The RYA one doesn’t the STCW does.

 

[billskip]

+ cost and time

+ time to

What's all this "time " you (and many others in other threads) keep referring too?
How much " time" do you spend on forums, and just as a matter of curiosity, how much does it cost?

 

[Rob44]

I think another option would be;

1, Start with a 5day competent crew course, to get you going on the day to day ways of running a basic boat, for about £450-500. Here is the nearest training you will find to ‘how to sail’, higher level courses such as DS or YM focus more on navigation etc, expecting you to already know how to do the basic sailing.

2, Buy a well maintained sub 30’ boat for less than £10K. Think Ford Focus owned by the same grandad for the last 20+ years. There are loads around, it’s a buyers market (it’s also a whole new thread, let’s not go down that rabbit hole here!). Consider this boat as disposable, almost like a cost of rent or training, and expect to lose half your purchase price for a quick sale at the end. Moor it somewhere with all tide access, convenient to get lots of use, hopefully cheap but prioritise ease of getting out to sea over expense. This may mean driving some distance to the boat (not your nearest bit of the Bristol Channel, somewhere like N. Wales, SW Wales, SW England for you in the W Mids?). Do not spend any unnecessary money on upgrades etc and sail it as much as you can for 1-2 years, while still working. This will be your time when you really learn how to sail, getting the miles under your belt a weekend at a time. Use this boat as much as you can, all year round even when the weather isn’t good, as long as you are safe.
You will also get a much clearer view of your end goal. Now you will be ready to get some higher qualifications if you think you still need them.

3, Buy your new boat, list your training boat with a broker at a knockdown price and sail away.

Thanks for the sound advice! CC does indeed sound where I should start; I think I may have got somewhat confused with course content/suitability where I referred to Day Skipper being a start point in a recent thread reply.

 

[dunedin]

Thanks Tranona. I think I may have come across one or two articles or clips where it was implied a YM Offshore qual would help facilitate work as a delivery Captain? That it was almost considered essential? Although maybe I read that on a course providers site…

Dont forget the usual catch 22 of previous experience - nobody hires a delivery skipper who has not done 20 previous deliveries. So would need to do lots of crewing on delivery trips first - most will cover travel costs but probably nothing more.
So even with qualifications (up front expense) you would probably be at least 2-5 years of non earning deliveries away from actually earning any positive income (and that won't be huge).
The cash flow curve from this probably is very daunting.

 

[Sea Change]

Also, most people I've spoken to who have done deliveries have said it was a pretty poor way to earn money. If the planned trip was likely to be fun, in good weather, the owner would be sailing the boat themselves.

Despite this, I'm currently working through my tickets anyway. YM theory and Sail (Offshore) done, doing the Power version next week, then a couple of weeks later the AEC1 engineering course. I thought that adding the AEC1 would look good on the CV as it should show that I can handle minor breakdowns en route. This is on top of about 15k miles under sail and at least 10k on powerboats, as skipper.

It might not lead to any paid work, but it's nice to have a card up your sleeve when long term cruising. I already had the short courses for commercial endorsement from a few years fish farming. And I've learned lots of useful stuff along the way. Big thanks to a couple of forum regulars who have helped me put it all together (you know who you are!).

 

[ylop]

Yes and yes. I looked at popular marinas in Tahiti as an example location but couldn’t find a marina charging even half the worst delivery rates I could find

Tahiti is cheap, but it’s also not likely to have much delivery work! But even at Tahiti prices you are taking a significant chunk out of your earnings just for storing your own boat so you can sail someone else’s.

Do you think that when delivery jobs are quoted as £150/d + expenses that the people hiring you will want to pay your travel from the middle of nowhere?

Add on the days you need to leave your boat in the marina whilst travelling to/from the job and I think you really will struggle to make it worthwhile unless you happen to end up in a spot where there’s real demand for skippers and little local competition.

What employment would you suggest instead?

From what I can see liveaboard people fall into a few camps:

- sufficiently wealthy to not need work
- still able to do whatever they did before, working remotely
- practical skills - particularly doing boat repair, rigging, canvas work etc. stuff that can be done cash in hand.
- hospitality type work, but likely needs you to set down roots for most of a season.
- YouTube! How do you look in a Bikini?

Then there’s delivery skippers / instructors etc. who get paid to sail someone else’s boat. The Venn diagrams must overlap but as there’s enough people who do delivery work for peanuts it’s not a great way to subsidise your income.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

You would make more money renting out a flat, home than delivery skipper. Many delivery companies are no more than intermediaries between the skipper and client i.e. facilitators. As a delivery skipper you will have to have your own insurance for third party liability and are completely responsible for the delivery. The delivery company will pay the skipper for a travel and one or two nights at each end. If the boat needs further preparation and you have to stay in a hotel for longer, and the boat owner will not pay for the extra nights, that comes out of your pocket. At least one company insists on YM Ocean for all their delivery skippers, but in reality do use YM - make of that what you want - say one thing, do another. The state of some yachts that are delivered is shit, although you have a right, as skipper, to refuse a yacht if condition is bad. It is not a good way to make a crust. Skippering other boats for clients on trips would be a better option. However, rental income from a house or flat is probably best.

 

[ylop]

What's all this "time " you (and many others in other threads) keep referring too?

Time = periods where he is neither able to earn money nor able to actually enjoy sailing his own boat.

 

[billskip]

Thanks for the sound advice! CC does indeed sound where I should start;

Now this is my opinion and experience, but many years ago, (CC to me =Common Cents) when I started I went for Day skipper practical , there was four of us and the instructor, 2 were CC and other 2 DS..

Exactly same course we all did the same things, we got our DS and they got their CC...?? Made I wonder a tad, then I took the DS theory, I found doing the practical first gave me an understanding for the necessity and importance of theory requirements.
I did quietly ask myself what are the CC's going to do differently on their DS course?

I'm not one for putting importance on achievements, degrees, ology's, bits of paper, but thinking back, I think I made more sensible practical decisions at times sailing, applying the learned theory, as opposed to " I wonder what/how I should do this"