How to get an annual berth in greece in a municipial harbour?

[DangerousPirate]

Hello gang,
I have been busy and currently in the process of buying a house in greece in the Saronic Gulf off Athens. I know the country and the people, been on a boat over there once or twice, too and it's just a dream.

But now the complicated bit seems to be to get an annual spot in a marina near the location? I asked a couple spots and they have very long waiting lists. And when I say long, I mean 11 years+. Some apparently haven't had a new entry since 2015.

Greece is very informal, isn't it? Just rock up there, have a chat, be nice, pay a little respect and you'll get along. Paperwork is not bothered with much. That reflects my experience with renting and working in greece, too.
I assume those "waiting lists" are for clueless brits who don't have a feeling for how things works in the land of the sun. Am I correct to assume that I have to buy the harbour master a few ouzos and magically a spot opens up? Or is it more like that I just rock up in port, and leave my boat there for a year or two before they realise that I actually live on the island and need a spot for the boat, and then I get the discount? Or do they tell people to bugger off if they moor up too long?

My experience with boating in greece is limited to a few days in a port at most and some anchoring. None with residential moorings.


Also worth noting: I am not british, so this whole brexit debacle doesn't affect me.

 

[AngusMcDoon]

Paperwork is not bothered with much.

Not what I've experienced in Greece. They love their official looking paperwork stamped in triplicate by the harbour master, the mayor and the local Ελληνική μαφία.

 

[veshengro]

"

Also worth noting: I am not british, so this whole brexit debacle doesn't affect me.

Try asking on a foreign forum then mate..

 

[DangerousPirate]

"

Also worth noting: I am not british, so this whole brexit debacle doesn't affect me.

Try asking on a foreign forum then mate..

Oh, I am sorry. I will immediately delete my account. I have not been made aware that ybw is only for UK citizens.

 

[vyv_cox]

There is increasing pressure on Greek permanent berths. More and more charter fleets plus Turkish inflation rates forcing yachtsmen there to berth in Greece. Unfortunately the days of easy berthing in Greece are largely over. You may have to settle for a berth in a more remote location.

 

[DangerousPirate]

Not what I've experienced in Greece. They love their official looking paperwork stamped in triplicate by the harbour master, the mayor and the local Ελληνική μαφία.

Well, I don't know about boats specifically, but from living in Greece, the bureaucracy is real but mostly theatre. You fill out endless forms, visit offices, get things stamped but the actual deal is always struck with a handshake and sometimes a little cash or some other form of bribery. It's like a bazaar..


When I rented an apartment in Athens, the letting agency took my deposit to "secure" the place, then kept showing it to others anyway. I needed to move in a week early. At first they said impossible, landlord doesn't speak English blah blah. Fifty euros later I had the keys in my hand, no landlord conversation required. They called him, he said yes immediately apparently. Five minutes total. I was outside when they called me back in. Yea right


That's Greece in my experience. Officially nothing is possible. Unofficially, between friends, everything is.


So I suspect the marina waiting list is the official story. The real story gets sorted over an ouzo with the harbourmaster.

 

[DangerousPirate]

There is increasing pressure on Greek permanent berths. More and more charter fleets plus Turkish inflation rates forcing yachtsmen there to berth in Greece. Unfortunately the days of easy berthing in Greece are largely over. You may have to settle for a berth in a more remote location.

I am not blind to that, but I am not on holiday over there or try to park my boat for 9 months of the year without even being around nor am I a charter company. Surely if I am a resident on the island, I'd be able to get a place there or somewhere near.

So the 11 years no movement on the waiting list sounds a little suspicious. I don't blame them for it, but I don't know how to play the system. My experience with dealing in such things is very limited. My main goal here is now to confirm if they do handshake deals or if you need to be a little cheeky and just leave your boat there like a resident even if it's officially not the case. Greece seems to work that way. I mean, there must be a trick for someone to put their boat there somewhere. It's not even a super touristy island.

 

[oldbloke]

Even down here in Devon it's difficult to know when "locals" rules apply and when they don't. It can be very dangerous getting on the wrong side. What you need is a local guide

 

[veshengro]

What you need is a local guide

Already suggested that...

 

[dunedin]

.....
That's Greece in my experience. Officially nothing is possible. Unofficially, between friends, everything is.


So I suspect the marina waiting list is the official story. The real story gets sorted over an ouzo with the harbourmaster.

So if you know so much about it why ask on here.
Most experience of Greece serms to be much more officialdom and rules than elsewhere.

 

[DangerousPirate]

So if you know so much about it why ask on here.
Most experience of Greece serms to be much more officialdom and rules than elsewhere.

Well, I am not the expert. Maybe that came across wrong. What I do know is, that a lot of things are done with a handshake.

I have virtually no experience dealing with greek harbours and what their usual response is to someone "overstaying" in a harbour. Do they move you on? Do they tolerate you as long as you pay? That sort of thing.

I asked a few questions here that haven't been touched on yet, because there is no point in opening a thread if I am the expert on the topic haha

My questions were about whether handshake deals are common with harbourmasters (I don't know how far those kind of deals extend? Is it everywhere? Or is it just common with letting agencies, car dealers and post office officials?), whether simply berthing long-term as a resident but without the official annual contract is lowkey tolerated, and whether overstaying gets you moved on from a spot.

Just because I have made some handshake deals with letting agencies doesn't mean it works the same way for municipial harbours. Truly I'm here to learn how to work the system. Multiple harbours telling me that they do annual berths, yet spots on their waiting list haven't moved in over a decade, seems a little bit odd to me. Stonewalling perhaps. Creating friction to weed out the applicants maybe.

It could genuinely be that all spots are taken, of course. I could be so wrong. But it's a gut feeling that there is a way to play the system here.

 

[billskip]

Well it's definitely who you know not what you know, also I think priority is given to Greek flagged boats, is yours Greek flag?

 

[Irish Rover]

"

Also worth noting: I am not british, so this whole brexit debacle doesn't affect me.

Try asking on a foreign forum then mate..

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Seems a common problem in the Med generally .... I went all the way down the Croatian coast from Umag to Pula visiting every marina when I first got a boat ..... every one said the same thing ... nope, full, massive waiting list.

A couple of things worked to get a berth.

1. Get to know the locals, particularly the tradesmen working on boats, they can get you into a local marina or harbour once you've spent enough money with them - have a German friend who managed this.
2. Buy a boat from a local already in a marina and ask to take over the berth. Did that last year and the marina is €1K less than the marina chains would charge me.

 

[pretzel_logic]

Not what I've experienced in Greece. They love their official looking paperwork stamped in triplicate by the harbour master, the mayor and the local Ελληνική μαφία.

... and then stored in large numbers of box files on the wall of said office, for a minimum period of 200 years. I think bureaucracy started in Greece!

 

[DangerousPirate]

Seems a common problem in the Med generally .... I went all the way down the Croatian coast from Umag to Pula visiting every marina when I first got a boat ..... every one said the same thing ... nope, full, massive waiting list.

A couple of things worked to get a berth.

1. Get to know the locals, particularly the tradesmen working on boats, they can get you into a local marina or harbour once you've spent enough money with them - have a German friend who managed this.
2. Buy a boat from a local already in a marina and ask to take over the berth. Did that last year and the marina is €1K less than the marina chains would charge me.

1. That might be an idea, could get a boat job or two done in a boatyard. There is one on the island. That is probably a really good idea actually.

2. I already have a boat I intend to keep, but if all else fails, buying a local boat to inherit the berth and sell the boat again is an option worth keeping in mind. It would certainly give me a spot.

Regarding the overfilled marina situation: I'm genuinely not sure how the economics work for a municipal harbour. I can imagine they don't like annual berth as might make less with them than daily rates. Do they actually make more from daily rates than annual contracts? And does the off-season change that calculation?

In my case, it would be more expensive to stay on daily rates than the annual discount (duh), but even on daily rates it wouldn't break the bank to just stay. Begs the question how long you can stay.

 

[dgadee]

K

... and then stored in large numbers of box files on the wall of said office, for a minimum period of 200 years. I think bureaucracy started in Greece!

And quickly moved to universities.

 

[petem]

@vas

 

[Davy_S]

I managed to get a berth in Agia Efimia for two different boats, but the biggest was only 22ft, i was living there and simply went into the local town hall, i crossed their palm with 70 euros, then i put a concrete block down and that was it for the year, although it it not a marina its anchors or blocks.

 

[vyv_cox]

1. That might be an idea, could get a boat job or two done in a boatyard. There is one on the island. That is probably a really good idea actually.

2. I already have a boat I intend to keep, but if all else fails, buying a local boat to inherit the berth and sell the boat again is an option worth keeping in mind. It would certainly give me a spot.

Regarding the overfilled marina situation: I'm genuinely not sure how the economics work for a municipal harbour. I can imagine they don't like annual berth as might make less with them than daily rates. Do they actually make more from daily rates than annual contracts? And does the off-season change that calculation?

In my case, it would be more expensive to stay on daily rates than the annual discount (duh), but even on daily rates it wouldn't break the bank to just stay. Begs the question how long you can stay.

I have always berthed in a commercial marina (Leros) but most of the many municipal ports I have visited have no permanent berths and all boats are on anchor, which is unsafe for leaving a boat unattended. This may not be true of yours but it would be unusual in my experience.

Your other option is dry sailing, assuming you would go cruising for longish periods. The Preveza yards are quite used to this.