How to get a Private VHF Frequency

[ylop]

Who mentioned TV's ???

You need to reread your post - you were saying all handsfree devices were ok.

Taxis with radios are few and far between now

but still exist and are still legal so what is your point?

Ambulances etc. - usually the second person up front is on the radio IF its a fist mike ... not the driver...

You know that roughly half the journeys there’s only one person in the front! They may well be using h/free more now - but the law permits a fist Mike on a radio which was my point. The law was originally changed to ban phones in 2003 - and radios were more common then.

I am not going to waste time trying to go back over years of BBC / other online news to prove it ... but it is a fact that drivers have been prosecuted - OK - lets widen that to also given Penalty's - for choc bar eating ... tidying up make-up ... reading newspaper .... all sorts of distracting actions ... not just rumour.

the law is not defined by what the newspapers say people did wrong, it seems likely that putting make-up on or reading the paper would affect your driving* and so a prosecution would be merited. Eating a chocolate bar, which was your claim - not so clear. But back to the point, can you find a single example of someone prosecuted for using a fist Mike on a radio? I suspect not (unless their driving was affected) as there is an exemption in regulation 110 of the Construction and Use Regulations (sub para (4) if you want to check), for use of a two way radio (which is defined in sub para (6(d)) and would include a VHF).

However you’ve missed the whole point of my post — a radio may be a more appropriate tool for multiple drivers jumping in and out of multiple vehicles; especially the sort of vehicles you find around boatyards.

*certainly I don’t think I could maintain good land discipline or speed/distance to other traffic without modern driving aids whist applying makeup or reading the paper!

 

[Neeves]

I think there is some drift here. The OP was talking about existing VHF radio that he wants to use on a Private channel. He does not say why he wants a private channel. He runs a small family business operating inflatables and small run-abouts (I assume for hire). RYA Certificates from 1991 - how to get these converted into a modern photo card see Post 1. There is a storage side to the business, he does not say - but maybe he stores small vessels on racks. The transceivers he already has, and would want to alter to accept the new private channel, would only be used by the staff. He would prefer to do all of this cheaply. He does not say if his existing kit is fixed or 'not fixed' - as he says the altered items would not be used by anyone, only staff, using the vessels one might assume the VHF he already has are not fixed.

He has not said why he would not use mobile phones. It could be coverage, it could be expense (but almost everyone has a mobile phone now). Can he improve coverage (rent out his location to a mobile provider to install a mobile tower?? ). If the problem negating use of a mobile phone is coverage then his customer base cannot easily contact him, or the business, in an emergency - and he really should address that issue as a priority. The fact that current radios are only used by staff seems to indicate a gap in safety.

To me the obvious answer is - use the mobile phones, but maybe his location is in an area of poor reception. Hands free seem sensible if there is a concern about safety. The second answer is use non compliant equipment - what do crane operators in the UK use on construction sites? - The third option seems to be find a quiet channel. Or operate as a yacht club.

There is much mention of non-compliant equipment - there must be thousands of such devices in circulation - is anyone ever prosecuted (crane operators), truck drivers.....?

Part of the discussion covers safety - Channel 16 is always available - he is already covered.

So....unless the OP comes back and provides some input most of the discussion is interesting .... but academic.

The OP might get more accurate help if he fills in the gaps.

There has been talk, other threads, on boosting mobile phone signals - most such devices were not approved - has the situation changed.

Jonathan

 

[oldgit]

Ofcom website.
Ofcom investigation helps to convict man for amateur radio interference
file:///C:/Users/admin/Downloads/Prosecutions-for-using-a-VHF-marine-radio-without-a-license.pdf
file:///C:/Users/admin/Downloads/Misuses-of-PMR446-Band-Prosecutions(1).pdf

 

[Alicatt]

Ofcom website.
Ofcom investigation helps to convict man for amateur radio interference
file:///C:/Users/admin/Downloads/Prosecutions-for-using-a-VHF-marine-radio-without-a-license.pdf
file:///C:/Users/admin/Downloads/Misuses-of-PMR446-Band-Prosecutions(1).pdf

@oldgit those two last items reference your own disk drive

 

[wonkywinch]

@oldgit those two last items reference your own disk drive

The second of which was downloaded twice

 

[Mark-1]

On this subject, are the UK channel usage conventions enshrined in UK law?

(I'm not asking about what would happen in practice, just the specifics of the law.)

The WTA is here:
Wireless Telegraphy Act 2006

Seems like Ofcom are allowed to specify regulations and breaking those regulations breaks UK law. However, the trail seems to go cold finding the specific regulation regarding channel purpose.

For example, I've always been curious about where it's written down that a Kayak/Yacht is a "Ship" for the purposes of using Channel 4, even though we all agree it is.

Hopefully YBWers will be able to point me to the correct Ofcom document.

(Clearly Channel 0 and misuse of Channel 16 are protected by law, I'm asking about the bread and butter channels say M1, or Ch4?)

 

[finestgreen]

On this subject, are the UK channel usage conventions enshrined in UK law?

(I'm not asking about what would happen in practice, just the specifics of the law.)

The WTA is here:
Wireless Telegraphy Act 2006

Seems like Ofcom are allowed to specify regulations and breaking those regulations breaks UK law. However, the trail seems to go cold finding the specific regulation regarding channel purpose.

For example, I've always been curious about where it's written down that a Kayak/Yacht is a "Ship" for the purposes of using Channel 4, even though we all agree it is.

Hopefully YBWers will be able to point me to the correct Ofcom document.

(Clearly Channel 0 and misuse of Channel 16 are protected by law, I'm asking about the bread and butter channels say M1, or Ch4?)

I haven't checked but I would assume these would be licensing conditions, or at least that the license would reference the relevant schedule

 

[wonkywinch]

Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men. Harry Day

 

[Mark-1]

Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men. Harry Day

You can't enjoy the pleasure of disobeying rules unless you know what they are.

 

[finestgreen]

I haven't checked but I would assume these would be licensing conditions, or at least that the license would reference the relevant schedule

https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/ass...icence-terms-and-conditions-earth-station.pdf

 

[Juan Twothree]

Because he is wanting to have a Shore based communication ... and that is not permitted on standard Ship VHF ... its a separate licence and the Duplex ch's are set as SHORE based on a VHF radio ... that radio cannot be used on a vessel ... for same reason ..

Don't know if it's relevant to the discussion, but the RNLI have a marine VHF installed at each boathouse.
However, under the terms of the licence, the radios have been modified such that although they can receive on any channel, they can only transmit on 16, 0 and 31, and even then use of 16 and 0 is only supposed to be with the permission of the CG in that particular instance.

 

[Refueler]

Don't know if it's relevant to the discussion, but the RNLI have a marine VHF installed at each boathouse.
However, under the terms of the licence, the radios have been modified such that although they can receive on any channel, they can only transmit on 16, 0 and 31, and even then use of 16 and 0 is only supposed to be with the permission of the CG in that particular instance.

Depends on the Licence issued .... as a Shore Base when I was Regional Director of an International Inspection Co - we asked Latvian Authorities for Licence to operate VHF station ashore.
The info we rec'd officially was that we would need to purchase a Shore Base Station with CE Certification (this was BEFORE Latvia joined EU - but not having own "western' standards - applied EU / UK conditions).
That it would as I already explained have the Duplex Ch's as per Shore part of the channel and unable to Tx as a ship.
The option to retain all simplex Ch's was there - but needed extra information to clarify such number of ch's - otherwise there would only be a limited number of Simplex such as 06, local Harbour channel, 16 and one other we could request.

The reply we received was in line with Radio Authorities elsewhere incl as we checked - other of our company offices around the world. It was not just a Latvian matter.

Unofficially - my contact suggested just use a normal VHF and monitor ... (Duplex of course no use) ... restrict Tx to minimum ... which is what we did until Lightning decided to hit the roof and fried not only the VHF .. but jumped to the office network cable - frying all the hard drives !!
Andrey - local Manager and I were sitting near the window where the VHF was .. the BANG as it hit and shock threw us off our chairs .. ears ringing ...

 

[ShinyShoe]

There is an option not discussed - LTE Trunking. It's not something I've ever used, but in essence, it takes a radio signal shoves it down the internet and might either transmit it over radio (WiFi I think) for the final part or the set picks it up. They can usually (? always) connect into 4G telephone system to do that.

What's the advantage? You aren't limited to a 5W line of sight transmission. You aren't limited to 1:1 calling like a traditional mobile. You can usually do some local VHF with it too. This is being used on big shipping etc for deck work. But also for chat re container cranes etc.

Until now, it's not been possible to have a set that could also do marine channels. But in the last month or so icon launched this:

Icom Launches Groundbreaking IP-M60 Marine VHF/LTE Hybrid Radio at METS 2023 - News - Icom UK

It potentially provides the EXACT use case that the OP was looking for. (No idea of costs). Fully legal.



On the extreme other end was the Buefungs. Also ticking the boxes through PMR for local chat on shore etc and providing a route on the marine frequency. But outside of all type approvals and not much choice on the waterproof front.

Someone said they might splatter onto neighbouring channels. The Amateur Radio guys are very into measuring all that stuff and they tell me they are remarkably clean..but they'd suggest the antenna isn't tuned optimally for CH16 like a marine vhf is.

And finally, I'm pretty certain you can get a non-marine VHF frequency (around 153 or 170Mhz) probably with a CCTS tone to make it feel private but shared with building sites etc (only people on thag CCTS will hear you but you might risk clashing). Than CAN be programmed onto a marine VHF by the radio manufacturer. I'm pretty sure the RYA has one on their event radios. I suspect this isn't a cheap option.

 

[ShinyShoe]

Duplex would also work if base is prepared to relay everything

 

[finestgreen]

Someone said they might splatter onto neighbouring channels. The Amateur Radio guys are very into measuring all that stuff and they tell me they are remarkably clean..but they'd suggest the antenna isn't tuned optimally for CH16 like a marine vhf is.

I think the problem is poor quality control - you might get one unit that's reasonable and the next one in the batch is all over the place.

 

[ShinyShoe]

I think the problem is poor quality control - you might get one unit that's reasonable and the next one in the batch is all over the place.

Possible. But this is chip technology. Not Crystals and Valves.

I suspect ICOM don't test every set leaving the factory on every frequency. They prove the design and might periodically test some.

How much do we think ICOM spend on making a £120 retail VHF? It wouldn't surprise me if they are paying £20 a set from a Chinese factory. But they have design, branding, marketting, support, manuals in real English, certification, warranty, dealers, shops, website etc to maintain.

Cheap cloned sets - someone flogging on may be happy with £5 profit and sell in bulk instead (reality: if it cost £95 I'd not have 3 sat on my desk! I'd not have 1!). If they made a decent waterproof floating version I'd be a happy man! It would be a future backup replacement for my fixed set next time the handheld falls from a pocket in front the tractor wheel!!

 

[st599]

Possible. But this is chip technology. Not Crystals and Valves.

I suspect ICOM don't test every set leaving the factory on every frequency. They prove the design and might periodically test some.

How much do we think ICOM spend on making a £120 retail VHF? It wouldn't surprise me if they are paying £20 a set from a Chinese factory. But they have design, branding, marketting, support, manuals in real English, certification, warranty, dealers, shops, website etc to maintain.

Cheap cloned sets - someone flogging on may be happy with £5 profit and sell in bulk instead (reality: if it cost £95 I'd not have 3 sat on my desk! I'd not have 1!). If they made a decent waterproof floating version I'd be a happy man! It would be a future backup replacement for my fixed set next time the handheld falls from a pocket in front the tractor wheel!!

The measurements I posted show it being out of spec on 2m and 70cm.

 

[EugeneR]

Back to OP requirements, it is possible to get a business marine VHF channel, subject to availability in the local region. Apply here: Apply for or vary a maritime radio licence

It many cases it is technically possible, using software and a connection to the radio, to program your existing VHF to work at those frequencies, as long as the requires frequency falls within the range supported by the device.

The manufacturer may offer programming as a service, if you provide the license, if you cannot find software to do it yourself. Then, technically, the signal should be 100% conformant.

Generally speaking, the manufacturer has to ensure the product - obvs. with a user license matching the intended purpose - can only be used in a compliant way (from a technical perspective e.g. band usage etc).

This is as opposed to more configurable equipment e.g. ham radio where the user has the training - and is licensed accordingly - to take on that responsibility.

As such, e.g. ICOM may not want "special" versions of their "normal" marine VHF handsets floating around, so may push you towards a specific set that makes it clear that a special license is required.

It is the rules designed to mitigate the latter risk, which might get breached, hence I do not encourage this. But as the risk is not yet crystalised, the OP being licensed to use the frequency and the signals being 100% conformant, challenges are unlikely. OP should ensure the radio cannot be accidentally misused e.g. after selling it to someone else who is not licensed on the frequency, etc.

In short, what OP is asking for, may be possible if the radio can be programmed to match a frequency he can get from Ofcom.

 

[Refueler]

EugeneR .... all well and good that Ofcom or whatever authority your location governs RF .. but the radio unit itself is not allowed to be modified - you immediately void the CE ... UL or whatever mark is used where user is ...

OK - the likelihood of being caught is slight - but there.

The fact is - you can apply and get a Shore Based Freq allocation - but the gear you use to service that allocation is strictly limited and must conform ...

 

[ShinyShoe]

But that's frankly internet bawlocks.

The set is shown to confirm to a range of frequencies..the set manufacturer certified that. The set manufacturer (or their agent*) adds additional channels. It doesn't invalidate the conformance - they are making a frequency combination available within the conformance.

If it's a Icon Radio it would likely be added as a P channel. P meaning Programmed. They P channel M2 (shows as P4 on some sets) which is unique to the UK.

If you are opening the radio up and desoldering things or adding shit on - that's affecting the conformance. Adding a frequency that is within the range the set was tested for, to a drop down list is not. That's EXACTLY how the MCA, RNLI etc sets are done to enable Ch 0.


Likewise they can disable channels (e.g. for a land base unit who shouldn't be using most channels) and they can reverse the Duplex for the same reason. All without invalidating the conformity that the radio transmits correct watts on correct frequency.

They may well suggest a "better" base station - because you don't need DSC on a base unit normally...

This is like taking a car and having a tow bar fitted... It's within the design spec

---

*In the past you might have been able to download software and get a lead to do it yourself, you likely can't these days. Assuming it's a modern Icom or SH set you'll need a dealer with the software. GaelForceMarine can do it.