How much anchor chain?

[Pye_End]

Do you have a manual windlass or any other means of retrieval?

If not, retrieving a significant depth of chain, even without any effect from the weather, is difficult if not impossible. If you are not anchored in deeper water then you don't need it in the first place.

 

[tabernacleman]

With a Warrior 35 I would have 30mts of 10mm chain to a 20kg (40/45lbs anchor)which will probably serve most anchoring situations with 20 mts of anchorplatt out as well, (assuming 10mts of water,) there would be 80 mts of anchorplatt still in the locker ready to be let out in the event of dragging/increase wind etc. In the boats store would be another 100mts of anchorplatt which could be joined onto rode if really needed, keep the spare 100 mts dry because wet anchorplatt is nearly as heavy as chain. /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

 

[AncoraLatina]

[ QUOTE ]

<span style="color:blue">
I don't know what your experience is....

....I FEEL very reassured by having........an all-chain rode.

the FEELING of safety that heavy chain gives me.... </span>

[/ QUOTE ]

Nothing rational or scientific here... only « FEELING » -

The best mooring line need some chain, to avoid chaffing of the line on the aggressive seabed... between 10 and 30 meters will be enough – then a Nylon rope will be more efficient and safer too...

If you have a good windlass, an all chain rode is easier but not better... and you must use an efficient snubber.

Without windlass, the problem is quite different, 20 meters of high tensile chain will be enough.

Consider also that « New Gen » anchors are more efficient and you can have a bigger, more efficient anchor at half the weight of the « old gen » anchors, for example for a 35’’ boat, between 7,5 and 12,5 kg anchor.. see on
Size selection guide

 

[William_H]

Around here very few pleasure boats have much chain at all. Our law requires min 2 metres and I guess that is what most people have or perhaps more like 5 metres.
A rope rode requires more rope let out and hence more room to swing and perhaps a bigger anchor at the end but rope certainly gives more elastic effect. Much depends on your anchoring needs and habits.

I would suggest that you must already have some ideas on what suits you if you have had the boat for a while. If you havn't had much experience then stick with what you have for another season and then decide what you need. good luck olewill

 

[mawm]

There is no perfect formula for amount of chain needed.

Firstly one must have an efficient anchor, secondly the nature of the seabed will determine how well this will hold. Some chain is necessary to add to the catenary (although in high winds this will be reduced to very little and the length of your rode will alter the angle of pull on your anchor to a greater degree) and to reduce chafe from the seabed. Nylon rope will be strong enough and act as an efficient shock absorber but excessive stretch from loading and chafe at the bow roller will weaken your line.

If chafe is your enemy - fit all chain rode, if you look after the nylon line and have protection from anti-chafe, lots of nylon, with 10 - 20m chain, will be all you need. Just don't anchor amongst the mobo's

 

[Refueler]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

<span style="color:blue">
I don't know what your experience is....

....I FEEL very reassured by having........an all-chain rode.

the FEELING of safety that heavy chain gives me.... </span>

[/ QUOTE ]

Nothing rational or scientific here... only « FEELING » -

The best mooring line need some chain, to avoid chaffing of the line on the aggressive seabed... between 10 and 30 meters will be enough – then a Nylon rope will be more efficient and safer too...

If you have a good windlass, an all chain rode is easier but not better... and you must use an efficient snubber.

Without windlass, the problem is quite different, 20 meters of high tensile chain will be enough.

Consider also that « New Gen » anchors are more efficient and you can have a bigger, more efficient anchor at half the weight of the « old gen » anchors, for example for a 35’’ boat, between 7,5 and 12,5 kg anchor.. see on
Size selection guide

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry - but anyone who advises reduce anchor size due to modern design - I would take to task.

A lightweight anchor will only hold by virtue of its design to dig in and have sufficient area to provide resistance to pulling out and then dragging. Being lightweight it may end up skipping the bed not having enough weight to get it to start / aid its' penetration into a sea bed.
Sorry but I may be old-fashioned, I may be a dinosaur when it comes to anchoring but years of shipboard practice, yachting since a kid ... says to me - There 'aint' no substitute for KG's (allied to a good fluke design to dig in of course).

Second if you ally a lightweight anchor to a rope rode - then I have no wish to anchor near you - I would stay well away with my old trusty heavyweight and chain.

It amazes me that many people particularly mobos rely on piddly anchors and short chain + rope. Anchors that IMHO are more suited to dinghy's. I know it's what manufacturer puts on usually - but still no excuse. Biggest you can handle with a reasonable length of chain to add weight and catenary.

Sorry for the rant - but I don't fancy some other boat banging into me when they drag.

 

[vyv_cox]

Well, when I'm sitting at anchor in a poorly sheltered bay in 40 knots plus of wind, miles from any safer refuge, I like to FEEL safe. Do you find anything wrong with that? I can only say that virtually all liveaboards agree with me. I see very few liveaboards at anchor with any rope in their rodes.

You are welcome to push the limits as far as you like by using theoretically strong-enough equipment, on your own boat. Just don't expect people like me, who like to FEEL safe, from doing the same. And please keep away from me when you do it, as I don't want you dragging down on me, or to have to rescue you when the going gets tough.

Incidentally, if you use a mixed rode for stern-to anchoring in the Med, I can absolutely guarantee that somebody will get your rope around their prop, and probably cut it free. I just hope for your boat's sake that you are there when it happens.

 

[AncoraLatina]

[ QUOTE ]

<span style="color:blue">Sorry - but anyone who advises reduce anchor size due to modern design - I would take to task. </span>


[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry too – My English shouldn’t be good enough or I didn’t explain myself enough clearly, but I never mind reducing anchor SIZE ...

On the contrary, with « Next Gen » anchors, you can at the same time increase the size ( more holding ) and decrease the overall weight.

[ QUOTE ]
<span style="color:blue">not having enough weight to get it to start / aid its' penetration into a sea bed </span>

[/ QUOTE ]

I fully agree with you, but comparing 18% at the tip of a 20 kg « old gen » anchor (3,6 kg) and 37% of a 12,5 kg « Next Gen » anchor ( 4,6 kg) advantage is by far for the LIGHT « Next Gen » anchor..
Considering also that the « next gen » anchor may have a penetration angle better designed, everything is in favor of the « Next Gen » anchor... years of shipboard practice or not !..

Nearly one century ago, when sailors change from Fisherman anchors for the « new designs » (CQR – Danforth) they also take a lighter anchor for more efficiency…

[ QUOTE ]
<span style="color:blue"> There 'aint' no substitute for KG's </span>

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes... a good design will be by far more efficient than a heavy anchor... Forget about perceived wisdom such as weight and catenary ...

 

[TamarMike]

My old boat I equipped with 10m chain, the rest nylon warp, anchored a lot, including the Scillies, (though not iirc in more than 20 m) with no problems. If in doubt about the ground I felt most secure with a heavy fisherman's anchor otherwise used a Danforth which was much easier to recover (not having a windlass). The yacht I have now has all chain which, being much slower to deploy and raise means, I confess, I tend to let out a lot less. I am looking at a way of stowing the the second cable (10m chain then rode) where it can be easily deployed so I have the choice according to circumstances.

 

[Refueler]

Trouble is KG's are important as many times the sea-bed is not soft or suitable for a design element to dig in. It needs the sheer weight to get it started.

It's simple test in fact ... take it to extremes ... light weight material and large flukes, nice angle to apparently dig in. Lay it out and then pull with a car or tractor - whatever. We are talking in the garden or on the beach. Watch it skip. snatch and break free as it doesn't have the weight to keep it biting.
Heavy material and small size - drag that - more likely to dig in.... even if fluke angle is reduced. Of course it's conjecture and needs proof.

We've had so many anchor debates on these forums about new designs vs old, rope vs chain, hanging weights on chains etc. till I reckon many people gave up reading such posts.

Problem with anchoring is that no one design can do all. There are times when a Fishermans will out hold anything else. There are times when a fishermans is just totally useless. The other designs will suffer similar for different conditions, no matter what design.

My boat has a good sized CQR and a weighty Fishermans as kedge. The CQR is near all chain rode with a length of heavy nylon if I go to deeper water. In UK - I never had trouble with the CQR and it held in some awful places / weather at times. Boat came out here to Baltic and the river past my house is ex glacial - meaning it has thin sandy bottom over quite a hard underlying strata. Anchoring in that is not to be trusted whatever you use and my CQR just slides across it. Funny enough though - bung out the Fishermans and it actually bites into that hard strata - I still wouldn't trust it though. Best anchor for this river is a large block or boulder ! Seriously. In other words KG's - lots of them.

 

[shmoo]

Too much warp, too little chain, long scope:

This happened to us. Then we got more chain!

 

[vyv_cox]

I like it!

Have had it happen to me but only on a lunchtime kedge. Had completely forgotten it until your nice sketch reminded me.

 

[Eeyore]

OK all. Thank you very much for your imput and links given - it all makes interesting and thought provoking reading. I will revise my plans accordingly after I have re-assessed the space available, intended route and all the other variables.

Now, what's the best anchor to have....?

....dives for cover! /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif



Only joking....so don't start another anchor thread!!

 

[webcraft]

You all keep banging on about anchor weight.

Might I suggest you take a 10Kg anchor and a 20kg anchor of the same design and drop them overboard onto a sandy bottom - no chain on, just the anchor.

Now have a look. Which one will have penetrated the seabed further?

Yes, probably the heavier one - by maybe an inch, maybe less. Who cares, an inch isn't going to hold your boat.

An anchor needs to be set, and I don't think weight is very relevant untill you get to really enormous weights. It is to do with shape and the dynamics when a pull is applied.

That is why a lighter but better shaped anchor is likely to set better rather than just being dragged bouncing across the seabed.

Those of you who believe a heavier old design is better are just kidding yourselves, or have no understanding of physics.

We anchored in gusty 30+ knots winds for three days last year in company with friends in a similar size and type of boat in about 5m (HW). We had a 10kg Spade and 33m of chain out. They had a 15Kg CQR and 35m of chain out. We never moved. On day 3 they dragged suddenly and had to re-anchor. Anecdotal I know, but I wasn't particularly surprised.

If you believe that an extra 5Kg or even 15Kg sitting on the bottom is what is going to stop you dragging then you are kidding yourselves. Anchors hold because they are dug in, not because they are heavy - and how well they dig in is primarily a function of design, not weight. Weight distribution is infinitely more important than overall weight.

Chain vs rope is another matter. Generally I agree with the consensus that 30m or so of chain is enough, then as much octoplait as you want.

- W

 

[damo]

Hi Ian, my Warrior 35 has just been treated to extra chain, re-galvanising and a new anchor. I now carry 75m of 10mm chain and a 20kg Manson Supreme. (Next item will have to be an electric windlass /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif )

Bristol Channel tides and range mean I end up needing all that length to get a reasonable scope, and I was fed up changing over from the drum to the gypsy when the rope rode was out (I had 45m chain plus anchorplait). I also want to be able to FEEL secure in a wide range of conditions - I don't care what some experts say, a big anchor and plenty of chain will do me fine /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[AncoraLatina]

[ QUOTE ]

<span style="color:blue"> Now, what's the best anchor to have....? </span>


[/ QUOTE ]

THIS ONE because...

- It’s the one which has the longest experience ( still used today ) /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
- It’s the one which has been used by the greatest number ( over thousands of centuries )/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

- It’s the only one which has an adjustable WEIGHT

If the weather conditions are getting worse, change the stone for a heavier one, for lunch hook, take a smaller stone. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

- It’s one of the cheapest (if not THE cheapest) /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

 

[Eeyore]

Hi Damo
[ QUOTE ]
I now carry 75m of 10mm chain and a 20kg Manson Supreme.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's a lot of weight up at the pointy end - similar to 'foreverfreedom38'

I'll think about it all over the next few weeks while I carry on fitting other 'new toys'.

I take it that you have a manual windlass on Storm Petrel, and obviously a different gypsy to mine?

Perhaps if I were to double my chain length to 60 m, it would give a little extra confidence (or better FEELING) and the extra weight would come to 43 kg. I too have a Manson Supreme (though it's a 15kg not 20) which replaced the articulated CQR that sometimes fell over on it's side and refused to set properly!
/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

 

[Pye_End]

A point well made, but I can see little relevance to my post.

The last time I hauled up 15m of 8mm chain (depth not length) in calm conditions was hard work, and I realised that it would not take much more before it was unmanagable without mechanical aid. An all chain rode is great, but presumably the OP would like to use it more than once. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

P.s. - long keel solves the spinning top problem.

 

[Refueler]

Read properly ... you are correct but are comparing different forms. The CQR is famous for some bottoms it won't hold on. Same as others are.

Taking like for like - KG's do matter. It's not to hold with KG's - it's to aid the digging in .... lets use correct word "set and brought up to" that's my case argument.

 

[Refueler]

CQR is designed to fall on its side. The plough then angles down as it pulls along and digs in. If it stays upright so shank is of bottom and it's standing on both plough blades - it will not 'set'.