How many of you drive Morris 1000s or Mk1 Cortinas?

[doris]

This started out as a reply but it seemed to merit a headline posting.

The nostalgia on the forum for 'Golden Age' of yachting is extraordinary. If you want to do the boaty equivalent of the Brighton Run fine, but get real. Modern science and engineering improves the breed. It is better to buy a newer boat that is not a 'project' than to buy an old heap and have to continually up date her. I would love to be able to come back in 50 years time and see what we are all sailing then. I'm sure there will be forumites going all misty-eyed for Twisters and the like but most of us will be having stonking fun sailing mega machines beyond our current imagination. Storms will be commonplace but the boats will cope. Ahhhhhhhhhhh but a 1974 TwistedWesterMoody tub would be better, some will say.

Of course 2nd hand boats are dropping in value. Interest rates are rising, there is a finite supply of peeps with the housing equity to re-mortgage for a boat and production boats are getting better with lower build costs. We are at the closing stages of an long economic boom and the rose tinted specs are falling off. When you buy a boat you should mentally write off half your purchase price and continue to erode that. A boat is a white good and you don't expect your washing machine to appreciate do you. Any premium on what I suggest is a bonus. If you can't afford this, don't buy a boat. There are so many boats sitting idle in every marina in the land. Try getting into a boat-share, charter, crew on some rich ba*tards boat whatever,but accept that boat are expensive, rapidly depreciating toys.

 

[webcraft]

[ QUOTE ]
accept that boat are expensive, rapidly depreciating toys

[/ QUOTE ] Piffle.

They are if you want them to be.

We just spent a year living on our 27ft Albin Vega. We crossed half an ocean twice, did nearly 6000 miles and had a truly wonderful time. Nothing broke.

We spent a total of £20,000 max - £11,000 on the boat plus new sails, a new engine and a few other items of good gear. The boat is still worth £14,000 in her current state and with the gear she has on board, and is unlikely to depreciate more than another two or three thousand over the next five to ten years.

[ QUOTE ]
the boaty equivalent of the Brighton Run

[/ QUOTE ] The boat is a 'Morris Minor' if you like - 34 years old, but we still averaged over 100 miles a day on long passages and regularly saw six knots or more. We felt safe in big seas and high winds. Is that the 'Brighton Run' of which you speak?

Sailing can be as cheap or as expensive as you choose. You just have to want to do it. Older, cheaper boats are taking hundreds of people safely and affordably round the world as you sit pontificating at your keyboard.

- Nick

 

[Allan]

I can understand your point and agree with much of it. I would say that it is a horses for course situation. If I was out at sea and had a problem, I would rather have Mk1 Cortina technology that I could fix, than the Laguna technology which took "trained technicians" 4 full days to faultfind. Also the AWBs are designed for todays style of boating, shorepower, run to the marina when the wind blows, only anchor for lunch etc. Like I said, horses for courses.
Allan

 

[halcyon]

Totally agree.
Our Halcyon 27 is now about 35 years old, has done two Atlantic crossing , West Indies, and Azores, with previous owner. They tell me she sailed happly in a force 7 and above crossing the pond, and as you say can do 100 mile a day no problem.
We bought her because she was not a AWB, we did not want one, we were looking for narrow beam.
By the time we sell her, we are not going to have spent over £10,000 in total, currently they sell for around £10,000 / 11,000, so in 3 / 5 yers time when we sell her, we are going to have had 10 years sailing for very low cost.
What am I going to gain buying a nearly new AWB, and selling it for a big loss ?
It's a bit like my brother buys a new Audi A6 Avant £27,000, 2 years later the dealer offers him £9,000 for against a new one. Plus it had a gearbox fail a few days inside warrenty, if not the bill was many thousends.
Me I drive a 8 year old Vectra diesel estate, cost £800, if it lasts 2 years, I will sell for around £500, If it has a mechanical failure you scrap it, But it's as comfortable, as economical, and about as clean to run, so why do I want a new car, except for ego.
Also as with the boat, I save the carbon footprint for it manufature, so am greener.

Brian

 

[onlyme]

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

accept that boat are expensive, rapidly depreciating toys


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Reply:

Piffle.

They are if you want them to be.

We just spent a year living on our 27ft Albin Vega. We crossed half an ocean twice, did nearly 6000 miles and had a truly wonderful time. Nothing broke.

We spent a total of £20,000 max - £11,000 on the boat plus new sails, a new engine and a few other items of good gear. The boat is still worth £14,000 in her current state and with the gear she has on board, and is unlikely to depreciate more than another two or three thousand over the next five to ten years.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Forgive me, but haven't you just lost £6,000 in 12 months which on £20,000 works out at over 30% depreciation.
/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Thats seems a really fast way to kiss goodbye to your money..........

 

[Sgeir]

[ QUOTE ]
Forgive me, but haven't you just lost £6,000 in 12 months which on £20,000 works out at over 30% depreciation.
/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Thats seems a really fast way to kiss goodbye to your money..........

[/ QUOTE ]Fairwinds was Mr and Mrs Webcraft's "home" for a year, and their transport - transport that took them to Portugal, Canary Islands, Madeira, Azores... How can it possibly be argued that Webcraft has "lost" £6,000? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Sailors sail. Like eating, there are costs. I believe they've had remarkable good value for their £6k.

 

[wotayottie]

[ QUOTE ]
I can understand your point and agree with much of it. I would say that it is a horses for course situation. If I was out at sea and had a problem, I would rather have Mk1 Cortina technology that I could fix, than the Laguna technology which took "trained technicians" 4 full days to faultfind. Also the AWBs are designed for todays style of boating, shorepower, run to the marina when the wind blows, only anchor for lunch etc. Like I said, horses for courses.
Allan

[/ QUOTE ]

In a way you have summed it up. Mk! Cortina = Albin Vega. Laguna = Bavaria. But if you want a good quality reliable modern car you dont buy Renault, and if you want the same in a boat you dont buy Bav.

As a life long potterer with "classic " cars and bikes, I know how unreliable they generally are, and how much technology has improved things since they were built. I'm sure that boats are exactly the same. Certainly , if the Albin Vega we have in our club is any guide (not a single season in the last 5 without an emergency lift out) that is the case.

And as for going transatlantic for a longish period in one .............. it has to be a bit like going to Blackpool for your hols in a m'bike and sidecar! /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

[onlyme]

But of course I could argue that my new Bavaria provides the family with a weekend retreat, five weeks holiday a year and somewhere to work from on days when either my wife or I (or both) choose not to work in the office.

 

[Bajansailor]

Re: Old yachts are good investments!

Paul, instead of thinking of this equation in terms of losing 6k in 12 months, look at it in the long term.
Webcraft Nick has said that Fairwinds is probably worth around 14k now (after they have spent 20k on her, as you point out).
And he has even allowed for depreciation of 2k or so over the forthcoming years.
Although I have generally found that a well maintained sailing boat generally keeps her value pretty well, at least out here.

If Nick keeps Fairwinds for another 7 years, and then sells her for say 12k, then that is 1k per year - and less than 1k per year depreciation if he can sell her for 14k, which should be quite feasible I reckon.

A much better investment than a car any day!

 

[gandy]

Boats are really more like houses than cars, and can be upgraded with some modern developments without losing all of their original virtues.

 

[Guest]

Trying to draw some conclusions about boats by comparing them with cars is just a waste of time.

Technology in boats has moved forward significantly, but only in out and out racing boats. My (1996) Contessa employs modern technology every bit as much, in some ways more than, a typical modern AWB. And she is built in a very similar way to a 1970's Contessa - the main construction difference is some improvement in resins. Most of the construction techniques are the same or similar, and where they have changed it's usually not to produce a better boat, but to reduce construction costs. Use of balsa and foam cores is one development, but personally I would be very wary of buying a cored boat (yes I know that closed cell foam is supposed to be 'safe', but...) Probably the only real potential improvement is use of epoxy in construction, but very few modern cruisers indeed take advantage of this.

Cars are completely different propositions - engines, suspension, electrical systems etc. have changed dramatically over the years.

The one thing that has 'improved' in the latest generation boats is accommodation space inside. That is largely a marketing/fashion thing. Bean counters have realised that boats are overwhelmingly sold by impressing with shiny accommodation at boat shows.

There have been some improvements over the years, but they have been far from revolutionary, and in many ways cancelled out by steps backward. Which is why so many very experienced sailors tend to go for older designs.

 

[tome]

As an assessment of a boat as an investment spot on, IMO. And a good post

You'll see from replies that many of us on here have long since dismissed a boat as an investment and have other motives for both buying and valueing. Perhaps it's a quirk of our nature that we wouldn't dispose of our boats unless the price was tempting. This must skew the market. Eventually we'll get to the stage where she doesn't 'owe' us anything and then who cares what she's worth, as long as she goes to a good home? She's given years of pleasure on which you couldn't hang a price

OTOH, if you are a short term buyer hoping to continually upgrade to take advantage of the latest market features you will be heavily exposed to depreciation. The trade-in value of a car drops as soon as a new model goes on sale, why should cutting edge boats be different?

 

[Twister_Ken]

Well, I'd prefer to think of it as an Austin Healey.

 

[tome]

Surely a Jensen 541R?

 

[Becky]

A boat as an investment. No chance. Just look at the second-hand values.

But................... wait a moment. Look at the lengths as well. A 20-year-old Moodywesterlywhatever still has the same value second-hand as a new JenBavBen of the same length.

There are two major variants in boat building at the moment. There are the Swedish clan of HR, Naiad, Regina et al, which cost a fortune. And the Brits, like Oyster as well. Heavily built like the trad Brit boats we used to be able to buy. Then there are the modern yachts, which sell because they are in relative terms, cheap.

Looking at a boat test in YW today, the write-up finished with the statement 'but you get a lot of boat for your money'.

£250,000 for a 45-50 foot bembavJen is a lot of boat for the money. But a 49 Oyster, or HR would set you back more than double that cost. HR's are built on an incredibly efficient production line, but they are heavier and that costs.

So, you pay your money and make your choice.

We could have bought a new Bav 37 for less than we paid for Cornish Maid. But we prefer the traditional style, the heavier hull, the easier ride in a bumpy sea, being able to stand up to her sails in a blow, and able to give us a fairly steady platform in rough weather. For this we sacrifice light-weather performance. Our choice.

One type isn't necessarily better or worse. Each is designed to fulfill a specific market niche.

Anyway, that is what I think /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

 

[Chrissie]

Yep, I drive a Morris 1000, a pretty soft top, which when the pistons started to fail earlier in the summer I was able to buy a restored engine, gear box and clutch from ebay for less than a grand, hire a hoist and removed old and fitted new myself. My car is worth approx £5000, no depreciation there, and shes 39 years old.
Also 39 years old is my Contessa 26, worth about £14000, so even less depreciuation there, I completely refitted her over the last year, (only the engine is a problem, but I had originally picked the wrong engineer) she is beautiful and sails like a dream, with all the mod cons (okay so cant aford AIS yet).
The simplicity and brilliant design of both make them truly clasics and I would expect to be using both and able to repair both myself in another 10 years at least!

My house is very old too, wooden frame with tudor brick infills, built with lime mortar and flexes and settles with the changes in weather conditions, has lasted 500 years so pretty good design there too.

Just like wine, only the good stuff lasts and improves with age, (bit like me really /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif)

 

[narooma]

out of curiosity, how long have beniteau been mass producing boats, and what is the oldest one anyone has seen?

 

[Twister_Ken]

"out of curiosity, how long have beniteau been mass producing boats, and what is the oldest one anyone has seen? "

Not sure, but here's one from 1977

 

[PeteCooper]

Group Finot, which seems to have become Beneteau, seems to have started in 1967. My Ecume de Mer, by Group Finot was made in 1972 but the class began in 1970. Source : http://www.finot.com/general/index_ang.htm

 

[photodog]

I live 5 hours drive from my boat.
I have not inherited the "handy" genes from my civil engineer father, (Who hand built GRP canoe and kayaks in our basement, and was the 1969 Canadian white water canoe champion in a boat he built.)
I have a normal swmbo who does not take to the sailing thing like I do, but who I want to be with when I am on the water.
I am deeply keen on sailing, and think I am pretty good as well, having been at it since I was ten.
I bought a modernish (1999) Bavaria. In three seasons the only thing that has broken has been the compressor on the fridge.
The engine starts almost on the first turn everytime.
The sails go up and down.
The lights work.
Their is no osmosis.
I can use the boat whenever I go down, and dont worry about fixing it up, redoing, etc.
My non-sailor friends think its nice.
It sails really well.
It has a AVS of 135', and is German Lloyds certified.
Ive been around start point in wind against tide F5
etc etc etc
We anchor ALL the time.

Its quick, fun, easy to sail, cheap to run, and comfortable.

I remember in my BMW 2002 (1975) having to push start the car at 30' below zero, the cluthc lasting 4000 miles, rebuilding the engine every 20,000 miles, putting pepper in the radiator in a vain attempt to keep it from leeking out every 50 miles, the valve stem seals, the brakes, everything that was wrong with that car. Great car in my memories, but their is no way I would swap it for my 2006 Saab 93, which in 44000 miles has not so much as stuttered.

Hey,, if you want a fixer uper, or if your a gear, then buy something older, if you want something that is reliable, and easy to run, and quick, then buy modern.

And anyways, the whole discussion is really just a call-out for the Bavaria bashers, who are probably jealous every time one of them blows past them.

When I retire and sail the Atlantic, I will get a Vancouver, or a Southerly or a Rival or a Barbican. Until then I will stick with my modern crappy production bavaria.

Rantish over.. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif


BTW; I really like the new Mystery 35.