How many of you drive Morris 1000s or Mk1 Cortinas?

[ShipsWoofy]

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a market flooded with 100's of the same-in-every-way 34something ft AWB. No, no, the mk 2 was quite different, it had different clasps on the wardrobe and the hatch is 6mm further aft. Stupid!

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Or alternatively... "Yes sir we have a number of Dreadnought and Ironclad models listed with us as the moment. There is lovely a 1973 Dreadnought with original orange upholstery plus floral blue curtains and I believe in 1981 the second owner glued brown Marley cork tiles to the cabin sole.

But if sir could stretch to another £2000 I have a Dreadnought Delux (B layout) from 1975 with an internally vented gas hotwater calorifier. The saloon table has extra extension flaps and the original brochure photo proves it is possible to invite the whole Pam's People to dine onboard."

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Stop being so prissy, I was having a go at the marketing, not the boats.

At least with cars as this thread uses as an analogy, they generally completely changed shape between models, ignoring of course the cortina MkIV and V, bigger back light clusters and

 

[ytd]

last year I sailed down to hobart in a 1970's long keel yacht. It was slow (unless you had 25knots+ from astern) noisy and cramped. But it did ride well when the seas got up. This year I sailed down in our 2003 bav44. It was fast in anything over 10 knots, quiet under motor, plenty of room. But you had to reef after 15knots and when the seas got up, slow it down to below 6 knots to windward or suffer some serious slamming. There's no free lunch but I know which one I would rather do the next trip in.

 

[jonjo]

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Stop being so prissy

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Look moush if you are going to sling mud at the boats that 1/2 of forum users sail at least be man enough to stand up to the response without stomping your feet.

I have witnessed years of misleading advice given on this forum about the unique abilities of the evergreen Brit MABs to avoid depreciation. Finally a bit of truth is emerging.

A massive inter-generational fraud has been cooked up by the crafty old seadogs that frequent the Westerly, Moody and Fisher owners associations. They have lured a new generation of sailors with promises of depreciation free yacht ownership. The myth is not sustainable, a correction is overdue.

 

[doris]

Missing the points

Most of you are missing the points of the original post.
We all use modern technology in the office, the home , the car etc. We could barely exist in today's world without it. Even MABs are usually full of it, replicas of MABs are made with it. Rigs are extruded far more efficiently and fall down less, hulls are vastly better made, all this before we even start to think about electronics, gas lines or engines! All this costs and has to be paid for. The Victor Mildrew of dewy eyed reverence for the past is piffle (to use one poster's word). Yes, 50 years on will be marvellous fun on the water, I emphasise the word fun.

The black and white view that all modern boats are either BenBavJens or RasseyNayadMalos also misses the mark. The middle market is huge. Think DehlerXBoatMaxiGSoleil et al. BBJs provide an excellent function but are perhaps questionable as open water all weather boats. This cannot be said of the middle ranges.
Different strokes for different folks makes the world go round but parts of this forum seems to dwell in a twilight world of a golden age that didn't happen. As for the poster who thinks that modern technology only benefits racing yachts, he must have a problem walking considering his head must be so far up his own fundamental whatsit! And yes I enjoy sailing not pottering around in a floating version of a garden shed.I leave that to Mr Cunliffe.

 

[Lakesailor]

Oh those moggies and Dagenham dustbins. Couldn't get out each other's way.

Don't know how anyone ever drove them

and those Minis were rubbish as well

/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[doris]

Ahhhhhhhhhhh Mk1 Lotus Cortina. What fun to pedal round a track, especially if you are JimClark. Nice little shim job adjsuting the valves!

Not quite the same when thay had to make it a couple of hundred miles up the road in the wet to see Auntie Mable! Especially with the dog and kids on board. I remember I was in the 3rd form when thay first came out.

 

[Guest]

Back to the original post:

"Modern science and engineering improves the breed."

Rubbish, the only improvement is in their profit. More boat for the money. These boats are marginal as has been well documented by recent "I lost my ...." (all 3 or 4 general appendages that stick out of modern light weight boats). Who would want to be caught in a storm with a hull that is so thin that you can see shadows through vs. an old ship that was dragged over Barbados reef and still floated afterwards! (First cruiser we ever met)

"A boat is a white good and you don't expect your washing machine to appreciate do you. "

It is NOT a white good it is a luxury toy. Just like a Cessna or a Motor home. But with all toys one persons luxury is another persons piece of scrap.

My brother learnt to fly in a plane that is older than me! I do not remember him referring to it as a fix me up.

"to buy an old heap and have to continually up date her"

I would be sad if that was what I do. But the alternate is to buy a old boat and refit it, to above standard, then go sailing. Are you saying Valsheda is a fix me up. A new boat does not come with much. I spent most of the money on the extra toys inside. That would be the same with a new boat.

"stonking fun sailing mega machines "

If that is what you are after then go for it. But do not denigrate the rest of us that have different requirements. To reduce cost, the style of the boat each year becomes more and more boxy. Flatter bottoms, straight bows, huge backsides. Not my idea of style or investment.

So down to values. All boats need maintenance like cars or planes. So first take that out. That is the cost of owning a boat. There is no difference between the 12 year life of a new rig to the 12 year life of an old boat that has been re-rigged. Then there is the depreciation of the on board toys. Generator, water maker, SSB, computer, dingy, outboard. So factor out those as well as they are the same for both old and new boats.

What is left is actually very stable in price. (Inflation makes it less valuable though)

What is missing at present is any free money supply to support any of the "toy" markets.

However, when it comes to the real crunch I would prefer to be selling a unique boat with proven ability than 1 of hundreds of similar boats. As wage prices go down (easy casual labour market) the price to properly refit a old hull will make them much more attractive.

 

[ChrisE]

Re: Missing the points

May be you, too, are missing an important point.

Yacht design is not just about hull forms, which have advanced dramatically over the past few years. It is also about choice of craft for aesthetic form as well and I, for one, don't much like the look of the modern AWB with standardised lines and features.

It is true that in terms of speed, a modern craft will out perform the majority of MABs in most conditions but speed is not the only criteria for judging a craft.

I agree that the floating shed is not to my liking either but spend some time and money on an older craft, updating with latest technology where appropriate then you have the best of both worlds a craft that is both a joy to sail and nice on the eye as well.

When was the last time that you had someone come up to you and complemented you on the looks of your craft? On Rival Spirit we get that at most places where we sail and that is worth a good few knots of boat speed.

 

[BlueSkyNick]

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Ahhhhhhhhhhh Mk1 Lotus Cortina. What fun to pedal round a track, especially if you are JimClark.

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Sure you don't mean Roger Clark before he went into Escorts?

To answer your original question, if anybody has a Mk1 Lotus Cortina for sale, one could be very interested. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

 

[doris]

No I mean Jim Clark

and Graham Hill racing saloons at the likes of Crystal Palace , B Hatch and Oulton Pk.

 

[jonjo]

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There is no difference between the 12 year life of a new rig to the 12 year life of an old boat that has been re-rigged.

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Except the new AWB has 12 years of life left in the standing rigging by definition, whereas the typical MAB arriving on the market requires immediate re-rigging from an insurance point of view.

Apply the same formula to the other replaceable/serviceable components that represent two thirds of the value of a yacht and you might then understand the other side of the valuation debate.

 

[Guest]

Re: Missing the points

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Rigs are extruded far more efficiently and fall down less, hulls are vastly better made, all this before we even start to think about electronics, gas lines or engines! All this costs and has to be paid for.

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I think that you are missing the point. Rather than waving arms around incoherently, try to be more specific. "Hulls are vastly better made" and "this has to be paid for"? In what way are the hulls of modern AWBs vastly better made than in the 1970's (barring slight improvement in resins re permeability that I already mentioned). What improvements are you talking about? Be more specific. The ones that I am aware of are techniques liked modular construction aimed at making mass production more easy, in other words making hulls cheaper. Sometimes they come in for a lot of criticism because for example they can cause access problems to certain areas of the hull etc.

Cost efficiency is a good thing, and nobody would deny that AWBs tend to be cheap, but saving money does not necessarily mean an improvement in the boat construction itself. Most improvements have gone into weight-saving. Again cored decks and hulls are stiffer for a given weight, but there is a price to pay in terms of future risk/longevity. Rigs are extruded more efficiently than in the 1970's? Well I'll just have to take your word for that, but many older boats won't be on their first rigs still anyway. And production AWBs tend to have basic specification spars that are often not good quality at all. The rest of it - electronics - tend to be updated from time to time anyway so most MABs will have modern electronics. Likewise many AWBs may have engine replaced - but the very best marine engines are still the older designs like the Yanmar.

So be more specific about these fantastic advances in construction technology are that you are thinking about - in what way is your average AWB better built than a typical 70's boat?

 

[Guest]

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Apply the same formula to the other replaceable/serviceable components that represent two thirds of the value of a yacht and you might then understand the other side of the valuation debate

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But then an older boat is probably going to have all sorts of little bits of equipment that, when you add them up, cost a fortune on a new AWB. It's swings and roundabouts.

 

[temptress]

Benjamin Bénéteau, qualified naval architect and founder of the company, launched his first sailing trawler in 1884

see here Beneteau history from 1884

The so called 'Brit' boat builders ent bust cuse they produces boats that were basicaly crap!

 

[Twister_Ken]

"The so called 'Brit' boat builders ent bust cuse they produces boats that were basicaly crap! "

Some maybe, but some built boats so well they couldn't sell them at a profitable price.

I'm reminded of a story about David Brown (a tractor manufacturer) who took over Aston Martin. After the purchase a good friend approached him and asked if would be possible for him to buy a car at cost price.

"I'd be delighted, old boy," replied DB, "as far as I can see it would be the first Aston Martin sold that didn't lose us money."

 

[halcyon]

Re: Missing the points

But was not modular build not designed by Hurley in Plymouth ?. They built one of the first production lines, all the wood bulkheads, and fittings were pre-made as set. If you look at them they are all stamped with a serial number for the set. Moulded internal headling was Hurley, plus other 1960 / 70's British builders.
I was told that Westerly produced 52,000 plus yachts, yet they are supposed to be crap. Most old British builders were sold as going concerns, by the people that started them.

Brian

 

[Guest]

my words were:

"that HAS been re-rigged"

Take it one step further. You buy an old boat and re rig it. The cost was already factored in.

Same with a 3 year old boat. Actually worse. The rigging on the new boats are so thin and the terminals so cheap that they would have to be rerigged as you have no idea what has happened to them in the 3 years.

My point is that certain costs have to be taken out of the equation leaving a massive difference on the price of the hull. Since all replaceable items loose their value at the same rate, whatever the age of the hull they are attached to, so they do not count in the comparison

 

[HoratioHB]

Re: Missing the points

Ooh just seen this thread - for some reason the forum was really slow last night.
This is one of those debates that you can't win - even if we had the facts everyone of us has gone our own route and spent a lot of money so are bound to defend our own corner. I'm of the best boat for buck persuasion and my analysis led me to a modern AWB for all the reasons in the original thread but hey life would be really boring if we all did the same thing.
One point though, I really cannot agree with people who say a modern AWB is OK for Channel hopping and no good for ocean crossing - just look at what sort of boats do the Blue Water or ARC - and before someone says it - yes rudders do fall off and rigs fail but I would still feel safer in my Jeanneau mid Atlantic than driving to work on the M5!!

Different subject - Jim (not Roger) Clark was the most incredible peddler of a Mk 1 Lotus Cortina in the world.

 

[Lakesailor]

Doris is right. F1 drivers in those days would do saloon car races at the same meetings sometimes. That is Jim Clark in the shot of the Lotus Cortina.

 

[flaming]

Blimey, you can really tell the season's nearly over!

Why as a comunity does the sailing world always seem to come up with the most ways imaginable to categorise people?
MAB, AWB, motorsailer, racing boat, motor boat, PWC.

It's all about being on the water, who really cares what the other bloke is sailing? If you don't like boat of type x, then vote with your wallet and don't buy it!

Everybody has reasons for buying the boat they did. If you see a type of boat you don't like sailing past, just relax and have another beer, it'll be gone soon.