How far in a small boat

[Praxinoscope]

Of course there are disadvantages to going for a small boat such as the L17 as a first boat, but the great thing about going down this route is that the capital outlay is low, most of these small boats still sail reasonably well and can be sold on fairly easily. This gives the newcomer a chance to decide if cruising is for them without a massive investment.

 

[{151760}]

That is the point . At Stone sailing club on the River Blackwater we have a number of old boats up to 26 ft. Trying to get the owners to sail as far as Brightlingsea is really difficult. Most of them find it too difficult to sail that far. Some end up turning back, Some can only motor it. Some liken Bradwell Power station at the entrance to the river to the moon-- They will never see the other side. Yet they have been pottering around the river for years, but do not feel their boats, capable, or comfortable enough, for such a sail.
We have had to start "cruises in company" to get some to go & even then some turn back as it is "too far".
As for Felixtowe, one chap bought his boat there & still talks about the "epic" cruise back to Stone. (under engine) He would never dream of attempting a return visit. He used to build & race International Canoes, so knows how to sail.

I think then it's fair to say that not many people go very far in small boats. That is probably my experience too. Not that many people go very far in bigger boats either. But that doesn't mean that advising newcomers to start in a small boat is necessarily bad advice. A small boat is a very good vehicle for learning to sail in, because it's essential to have good wind awareness and small boats are much easier to fend off, so the consequences of mishandling them are less extreme.
I suppose some people might be put off by the experience, so perhaps the best advice to a newcomer is to try sailing in a variety of boats of all shapes and sizes if possible. Many people will be put off bigger boats by the expense, the necessity for crew and perhaps the perceived fear of a large boat.
I've also known people who would happily sail an Enterprise in a stiff breeze on the sea who would baulk at sailing a yacht any distance.

 

[LittleSister]

I do think that some areas are better suited to providing the opportunities for the medium sized trips with some challenges that allow the skipper to grow in confidence but also whet the appetite for getting somewhere, rather than just jollying round in circles. (Of course, some people will be in one camp or the other regardless of the geography, but it's the ones who could go one way, or the other that make the difference, perhaps.)

For my own part, I was always more likely to be in the 'cover some miles and explore somewhere new' camp, as that had been my approach on pushbikes and motorbikes. My first significant cruising was in a friend's home-built 38 footer, and we went all over the place, including East Coast, South Coast, South Devon, Netherlands, Brittany, etc., and it felt that was my sort of sailing, even though I'd never be able to afford a boat of that size.

In a 16'3" centre-boarder I travelled the length and inlets of the South Devon coast, then got a 22' long fin, and extended that to include South Cornwall, Brittany and Scillies. Circumstances forced me back down to a little 17'3" bilge-keeler, but still travelled far and wide between Fowey and Southampton - always the smallest boat in any anchorage. Back up to the luxury of a 23' long-keeler, with a diesel inboard this time, in which I've done thousands of miles and visited most places between Salcombe and Great Yarmouth, plus Normandy, Brittany (twice), Channel Islands (twice), Norfolk Broads, etc.

Gallingly, having gone up a notch to a 27 footer last year, I've probably done less distance - twice to Gravelines - than previously, but that's mainly due to work and domestic demands, etc.

Something like a Leisure 17 certainly can be used for covering significant distances, but I think there are decreasingly few who would actually do it.

 

[scruff]

Something like a Leisure 17 certainly can be used for covering significant distances, but I think there are decreasingly few who would actually do it.

Which is a good point - my partner, who I introduced to sailing would not consider a boat without a separate heads for a weekend away. We quite happily camp and cycle tour together, but the prospect of sharing a cramped cabin of a wet weekend whilst one of us squats over a bucket is a step too far.

Therefore I sail significantly further in our 34 footer, with aft cabin and central heating with my partner than I do on my wayfarer each year! A happy wife = a happy life...

 

[bitbaltic]

It’s not about the boat but (mostly) about the skipper and (also) about the cruising ground.

Buy a little boat and take it 15 miles in the Solent, you have plan a b c d.

Buy the same boat in Cardiff and take it 15 miles, you have only plan A (portishead which is 18 nm anyway).

Different levels of risk for a novice skipper.

Also depends on who is onboard, kids etc.

Locked into Milford this summer with a guy who had the tattiest little Hurley, divorced chap no experience taking his little son out on the haven in a boat where nothing worked, we literally had to pull him out of the lock gates and drag him alongside, bet he did 15 miles up and down though.

I know experienced skippers with 40 foot AWBs in Cardiff who never seem to go anywhere.

 

[Skylark]

I have a pal who has crossed the Atlantic twice, both times single handed. Once in an 18ft sail boat and the second time in a rowing boat.

My own sailing begging was more modest. I had a Swift 18 trailer sailer. My home waters are North Wales, say, around Anglesey.

I kept the boat for a couple of years and reckon that I learned a lot from it. Does mileage alone define experience? Surely mileage is pretty much just sitting out playing the tiller extension? With a trailer sailer all I needed was a launch site. I had to practice inshore navigation and seamanship with each journey. I learned about tides, weather, pilotage, anchoring, mooring and so on. Good experience without huge distances.

 

[Daydream believer]

My first sailboat was a 22ft Swin Ranger.
First summer cruse was Weymouth - Dartmouth
2nd (with AH fitted) Weymouth - Dartmouth - Salcombe
3rd Weymouth - Cherbourg (on RDF)
The furthest I went was down through the French canals to Marseille and the Porquerolles off Hyères.

Wife & child?

 

[RupertW]

I know experienced skippers with 40 foot AWBs in Cardiff who never seem to go anywhere.

I feel for them - I kept my old GK24 for 7 years after buying a 42 foot AWB based in the Med. We sailed the bigger boat pretty much every day we were out there but if we were very lucky that was 6 weeks a year broken into a few bits.

But the 24 footer seemed suddenly so tiny in comparison (it didn't before), with string for halyards, a short little mast and sails the size of a tea towel that I would take it out myself and voyage from one end of the South Coast to the other with all the parking and sailing anxieties lifted. Sort of like seeing an O Level paper when you've just finished your A levels. Sold it with much regret but it was a lot of maintenance and South Coast marina fees.

 

[aquaplane]

Lots of very good points on this thread.
The guy who was referred to was a dinghy sailor in Edinburgh.
I don't know what the Forth is like but I have had several one and two week cruises on the Clyde in a First 18 which should suit a dinghy sailor down to the ground. You can cruise the Clyde without doing >20nm a day, but you can go further if you wish.
Learning to park a First 18 with outboard isn't a massive step up from dinghy sailing.
I have also had some grand one and two week cruises in a Centaur on the Clyde and as far as Tobermory. A Centaur isn't a massive step up from a First 18.
Steve Yates has sailed further in his boat/s than I have in my current 35' boat, but he is not the norm.
Starting small and cheap and learning from your mistakes as you get bigger boats is a good way to go, I believe.
Knocking a flotilla boat about in the Ionian to learn then and starting in a 32-38 footer because it's all you can get your Mrs on is another way to go.

 

[LadyInBed]

Wife & child?

Wife and two girls (7 & 9 the first year)

 

[Seastoke]

we went from Dartmouth to Antibes with a Shetland 4plus 2 the hardest part was finding a slipway

 

[MikeCC]

Friend of mine did the length of the Channel, crossed the North Sea, visited Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden. Went off in a Hawk 20, non-cabin version. Still alive.

 

[MoodySabre]

I have friends who share a 23ftr. Sailing for 15+ years, have never slept on it or done anything other than toodle about happy to sail to Holland with me though
There’s a Hunter 26 in Bradwell that the owner has had for eight years and never been out of the river.
Each to his own.

 

[ProDave]

Which is a good point - my partner, who I introduced to sailing would not consider a boat without a separate heads for a weekend away.

You can certainly get a proper heads with a real rigid door on a 21ft boat.

 

[MarcJ]

We started in a 20ft bilge keeler, spent the first year on an inland lake, then 2 years in the sea off the Llyn. We got as far as Cardigan in that (what an adventure at the time!!) on a 2 week holiday, also went through Bardsey straits and up to Angelsey. I echo the comments above - much better to learn on a cheap and cheerful boat, put up with the basic conditions and learn a lot!
We "moved up" to a 27ft'er it's still a challenge, the last 2 years we have taken a trip in the camper instead of our usual August 2 week sail, just because of the weather.
As for a weekend trip somewhere, it's tricky around the west coast (of Wales, maybe England too!) to "nip" anywhere, mostly it's almost a day sail to a safe harbour!

 

[peter bush]

I am surprised that so little has been said on this thread about the benefits of cruising in company.
I am sure that many novice skippers have been reassured by the proximity of other craft all going the same way ,,,,sort of...and I know from experience that other halves seem happier if a friendly , also possibly apprehensive face is not far away. Confidence gained this way leads on to doing your own thing and as already pointed out Happy wife -- Happy life.

 

[LittleSister]

Wife & child?

I knew a couple who lived on a Vivacity 21 for three years, during which they circumnavigated Britain, stopping to work etc. on the way. Having completed their slow lap, they had a baby, and initially lived on board with that too! They then moved onto a bigger boat, and eventually ashore.

But that were the 1970s, when men were men, etc. etc. At that time many would have been part of the generation that had grown up with outside loos and no bathroom at home; camping or static caravan was a normal family holiday; where holidays were once a year, if you were lucky; boating started with a home built Mirror, and then worked slowly up in stages to the giddy heights of a Silhouette or other family cruiser (the Leisure 17 was marketed as a family boat!); making and repairing things yourself was normal; etc.

For better or worse, expectations have changed, so while there remain those who do, or would do, serious cruising in a small boat, there aren't many of them. One result of the changing expectations is that boats have, on average, got much bigger and much more complicated. For that reason and others, costs (especially mooring) have risen dramatically. The result is that, by and large, owning boat has become restricted to a narrower, wealthier section of the population.

And a postscript to the liveaboard couple with a 21 footer: once their kids were teenagers, they got back into sailing again - buying another Vivacity 21!

 

[JumbleDuck]

Just out of interest can forumites tell me how far one can sensibly expect to cruise in, say, a 6/7 hour day, in a leisure 17 or similar small boat.

In my Jouster (21') I used to reckon a maximum of 60nm in a day if I spent both nights in harbour and 100nm per day if we just kept going. Those are upper limits, but 30nm was a perfectly comfortable day. In my current 26' boat I allow precisely the same.

 

[RupertW]

I am surprised that so little has been said on this thread about the benefits of cruising in company.
I am sure that many novice skippers have been reassured by the proximity of other craft all going the same way ,,,,sort of...and I know from experience that other halves seem happier if a friendly , also possibly apprehensive face is not far away. Confidence gained this way leads on to doing your own thing and as already pointed out Happy wife -- Happy life.

I wonder whether that's quite rare. I've never been active in the few sailing clubs I've joined and the only time I have personally encountered cruisers sailing in company was as a kid in 1975. I'm sure it must happen outside races and rallies but maybe outside most people's experience.

 

[William_H]

The whole question of what sized boat to buy is difficult. You very much want to buy your last boat first. However you don't want to rush into a big expensive boat only to find you don't use it enough ie it was all a mistake. You do however want to buy a boat which will give you and your family lots of pleasure and certainly don't want to put any of them off.
So an 18 ft boat with cabin is far better than an open boat when weather is not so nice. But then a bigger boat (and I think 21ft is a huge step in terms of speed and comfort) gives you more weight more speed especially again if wind comes up. Wind equals rough water water equals uncomfortable motion means passengers and skipper get put off. Weight in the boat gives less lively motion.
So my gut feeling is that a slightly bigger boat would suit you better but much depends on what you can find cheap.
At the moment it seems the market around here is terrible for selling boats. A friend sold a 26ft fin keel for 500 squid pretty rough mind you. He just needed to get rid if it. Another friend with a 32fter would accept half of what he paid for it years back. But of course expenses are much greater with a bigger boat.
In the end only your experience will tell you what yu need if at all in a boat. Me? coming up 36 years in same 21fter still used every weekend for 8 months of each year. ol'will