Helicopter Rescue off Dover

Fair e nuff.
At some point even the skipper was going to get tired though, then what?

I know it is like a dentist pulling em out one by one, but the 'facts' are teasingly shrouded.
Did anyone cook/eat? Was there any cabin heating?
One report suggests the engine was U/S at some point.
How were they going to sail into any port on just a No3?
Who restarted the motor?
Who would have had the strength to get a trysail on once they were at 40 plus kn? And on and on..
Did the boat have adequate ground tackle to simply sail its way to a sheltered weather shore anchorage in The Downs?
 
Boomshanka said:
I think trying to establish what the wind strength was at the time of the call is missing the point... the skipper recognises the forecast of a potential F10 prior to departure (via Twitter). For anyone who has sailed that part of the coast, they'll know that options for getting out of trouble are limited... the option of taking the sleighride up and past Dover then presents the variably shifting Goodwin Sands and/or shipping lanes (take your pick). Conditions by all accounts were grim, leaving only two functioning crew onboard, the boat disabled, crew member with (serious?) injuries. Maybe they should be thankful they were out of harms way *before* the worst of the blow came through... if they hadn't have been pooped then it seems likely they would have experienced ever-increasing wind... by which time Dover (with all of their commercial pressures) was completely closed.
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+1

Conditions did get worse after they got in...

I think that a large part of the trip was WOT... so sea state would have been interesting.....

I think there are two central issues that made the largest contribution to the incident;

1) The companies failure to properly manage risk. The company should have had a policy in place to prevent this happening. The incident was foreseeable. This is especially relevent in light of the accident from the previous year... and the company does not appear to have strenghtend the paid crew for this journey, despite the lessons that should have been learnt from last year.

2) The Skippers decision to depart when forecast conditions were extreme. Departing into a forecast F8/9 or 10 should have been against company policy given the crew strength and the nature of the trip... and even if it wasnt the skipper should not have departed.



The Skipper has made a gross error of judgment in regards to the capabilites of the crew. He was well aware of the forecast.

What is interesting is just how gross a misjudgment this was. The Skipper felt that a F8/9/10 was doable... but in fact appears to have come unstuck with winds more F6 or 7....... He had 3 crew ill by 1am... when winds were only 20 knots.

I think the lesson to be learnt for us here is;

1) Dont go out when its forecast to be potty.
2) Even at winds as low as F7 you can have serious problems... it doesnt take a force 10.


As a aside, This company, and probably I would suggest the whole RYA structure of licencing sail training companies, needs a much better examination of their H and S and risk managment strategies...

I dont think that these are up to modern standards.
 
Just to add. I was aboard in Brighton Marina and there was a lot more going on through the night than 20kn. I judge that simply by the motion of the boat. And the weight of the wind when moving around on deck to check lines and chaffing gear. Ignoring all that marina noise and clanging of lines.
By early the next morning it was pretty unpleasant indeed and by lunchtime the rainloaded gusts were simply starting to strip mobo cockpit enclosures, all of which translates , IME, to pretty unpleasant conditions in the Channel for any boat, and mine is , possibly, better than some,being designed and built with regard to safe seakeeping prioritised over most all other factors.
Not sure I would have faired that much better out there either, to be honest, but who knows?
Just silly,chancy winter sailing.
 
BlowingOldBoots said:
There is a reason why F6 is called a Yachtsman's gale.
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And why RCD sets the conditions it expects boats to be used in.

I wonder what class the First 40 is? With hind sight should the RCD class be used to limit the useof charter craft, along with an assessment of the crew's capabilities?

Category
Significant wave height
Wind forces
A - OCEAN
exceeding 4m
exceeding 8
B - OFFSHORE
up to & including 4m
up to & including 8
C - INSHORE
up to & including 2m
up to & including 6
D - SHELTERED WATERS
up to & including 0.3m
up to & including 4
 
Just to add a bit more.
Crew wellfare.
A lot of sailing schools provide wet weather gear. I'm sure HL is in this category.
Very few schools provide 'Heavy Weather' wet weather gear.
Some of the paying crew may have brought along their own gear but I am sure any issued gear would have been Coastal/Offshore jackets/salapettes.
Assuming this to be the case the crew will have become soaked and cold very early on in those conditions. The skipper may have brought along his own proper 'Ocean' waterproofs and not appreciated how ineffective the supplied waterproofs would have been.
Hence there would be a case of inadequate provision being made for the anticipated conditions.
 
Dont know why all the fuss over this [removed by admin]. We crossed the channel on Tuesday evening without any problems at all. We too were paying for the experience.

We were on a 19K Ton, 143 metres mobo, easy!
 
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A1Sailor said:
See the HMCG website:
http://www.dft.gov.uk/mca/mcga07-ho...s-releases.htm?id=B0BBA3A6EE66D677&m=1&y=2012

Press Notice No: 001-12
Tuesday, January 03, 2012
Posted 12:03 GMT
RESCUE UNITS CALLED TO YACHT OFF DEAL IN 50 KNOT WINDS
At 05.11 am, the skipper of a forty foot yacht made an urgency call reporting that they were having difficulty.
The yacht Liquid Vortex with seven crew on board, has five crew suffering with sea sickness and one crewman has sustained possible injury to his jaw and ribs after sustaining a fall on the yacht.
Dover Coastguard called out Coastguard rescue teams from Margate. RNLI lifeboats from Dungeness and Dover have been requested to launch and a rescue helicopter has also been requested.
The vessel is on passage from Southampton to London.
Spike Hughes, from Dover Coastguard said:
The skipper of the yacht called Dover Coastguard to request assistance after one of his crew had sustained possible injuries.
The weather conditions at this time are 50 knot winds and swells of 3-5 metres

Posted By: Fred Caygill




Does " at this time" mean 12.03GMT on Tuesday - or the time of the rescue?
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See - http://hmcoastguard.blogspot.com/2012/01/rescue-units-called-to-yacht-off-deal.html

Tuesday, 3 January 2012
RESCUE UNITS CALLED TO YACHT OFF DEAL IN 50 KNOT WINDS
Press Notice:001-12 3 January 2012

At 05.11 am, the skipper of a forty foot yacht made an urgency call reporting that they were having difficulty. The yacht Liquid Vortex with seven crew on board, has five crew suffering with sea sickness and one crewman has sustained possible injury to his jaw and ribs after sustaining a fall on the yacht. Dover Coastguard called out Coastguard rescue teams from Margate. RNLI lifeboats from Dungeness and Dover have been requested to launch and a rescue helicopter has also been requested. The vessel is on passage from Southampton to London. Spike Hughes, from Dover Coastguard said: The skipper of the yacht called Dover Coastguard to request assistance after one of his crew had sustained possible injuries. The weather conditions at this time are 50 knot winds and swells of 3-5 metres.
Posted by HMCoastguard at 07:05
Click to expand...
 
PhillM said:
I wonder what class the First 40 is? With hind sight should the RCD class be used to limit the useof charter craft, along with an assessment of the crew's capabilities?
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A 40.7 can be RCD A, not that that helps. That says that, in the opinion of the certification authority, the inherent design will cope with Class A conditions.
 
Robin said:
I think your words that sum it up are prejudiced ideas. The 40.7 is not a typical Benny cruiser but a pretty mean Bruce Farr designed cruiser/racer. The world has moved on since the Co32 much as I like them.
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I wasn't comparing a First with a CO32, although I know which one I'd rather be aboard in those conditions.

However, I do think that if you're in those conditions, the main will be more trouble than it's worth, particularly given that the rest of the crew were in such a bad state. Rolled gennie alone will calm things down and be simple for one person to control and reef. To be fair, the chances are the boat had hanked on headsails, so something small would be more than enough and prudent for the conditions - particularly at night.
 
Lets look at the company's Plan B

Its pretty clear that the skipper on this trip will need to explain his decisions to an accident enquiry. Many here have expressed thier opinion on those decisions, I wont add to that.

A thought has evolved for me whilst reading this thread. I'm making the assumption that the boat was being taken to the LIBS site based on earlier comments. That implies fairly strict criteria on timing for yacht entry to the site as far as I recall - I delivered a boat for the show 4 years ago, there were pages of stuff from the PLA and organisers to read. As it was being sold as a mile building / experience trip, there were also presumably fixed joining dates for the crew. So we potentially have a trip with fixed joining and end locations / dates, in January along the Channel - previous comments have pointed out the inherent risk involved in such a plan.

Given the risk that the trip would not be do-able at the times required I started wondering if the company had a plan B - What if our boat doesnt get to its destination on time? Without one, and without that being communicated to the skipper, there could easily be an (un)spoken pressure to deliver to schedule. The plan B could have been any number of options depending on the boats function at the show. With the plan B however, the skipper can still do the mile builder but with modified departure and destinations to suit the conditions.

This is not intended in any sense as an out for the skipper, but as a wider look at the responsibilties in such a situation.
 
Just out of curiosity does anyone know, what consequences, If any there would be for the skipper or school if this would have happened to a US registered school in US Waters?
I only ask as I have heard they are quite strictly regulated, and although I hate the idea of legislating for the sake of it I just wonder if it would have made a difference in this case.
 
Act One : Yeeha! Were gonna kick some butt out there boys. :cool:

Act Two: I'm from Messrs Sue, Grabbem and Stringemup, Attorneys at Law. Here's my card boys...:eek:
 
GlennG said:
I wasn't comparing a First with a CO32, although I know which one I'd rather be aboard in those conditions.

However, I do think that if you're in those conditions, the main will be more trouble than it's worth, particularly given that the rest of the crew were in such a bad state. Rolled gennie alone will calm things down and be simple for one person to control and reef. To be fair, the chances are the boat had hanked on headsails, so something small would be more than enough and prudent for the conditions - particularly at night.
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Quite agree, no main for me or a trysail, just a small jib, maybe the storm jib but one big enough to give the boat some speed rather than wallow in the troughs waiting to be pooped.

We were caught out years back in our then Westerly 33 Ketch having left L'Aberwrac'h for St Peter Port after sitting out three consecutive serious gales. We finally left with a forecast of F4-5, had F3-4 for an hour and then F9 the rest of the way from a secondary low not forecast by UK Met or Meteo France but oddly enough (when we got close enough to hear on VHF) was forecast by Jersey Met. We left with another W33 and both of us did that whole trip with a FULL mainsail, not from choice I might add. We had managed to drop the mizzen and had rolled the genoa away. We wanted to drop the main but the seas, after days of gales were huge with a very large residual swell on top of which was the new waves from the new blow. We had 45kts and more over the deck and were averaging 8kts over the ground downwind, but in the troughs the seas were high enough for the wind to vanish for a few seconds. We were convinced (I still am) that trying to turn enough from dead downwind to drop the main we would have been rolled over. The boat was hitting 10kts on the surfs and I hand steered for 13 hours except when SWMBO gave me a short pee break or fed me hot food, she found the wheel heavy in the conditions and hard to react quickly enough to avoid a broach. SWMBO cooked and navigated through this, it was pre GPS days but we did have Decca.

Since the tale above we have also run home in a full Channel gale twice in our last boat, a Sun Legende 41 cruiser racer. Given a choice I would pick that boat any day over the W33 and pretty well most others. For one thing the wheel was always finger tip light, she went where she was pointed and was not at all twitchy broachy or slammy. Actually when the new French owner took her away late December 2009, just him and a friend and neither of them having sailed her, not even motored her beforehand, they left with a forecast of SW or W F5-7 increasing F8. They left us in Poole at 4pm, just dark, with ice on the pontoons and the decks and sailed directly to Le Havre which is about 110mls outside to outside harbours, at an average speed of over 7.5kts. They had several hours mid Channel of 40kt plus true windspeeds and just to help things along it was snowing. Then they found water over the floorboards.... The water was fresh and a calorifier hose had frozen and detached which fortunately they could pump clear. Two of the three freshwater tanks were 'on' so they had to pump maybe 70 gallons out. Unfortunately they decided to turn on tank three, which promptly went the same way into the bilge. Plan c was the bottled water every Frenchman brings to sail with!

Not relevant I know to Liquid Vortex, but a) it covers an example of using the main when a foresail would be better and b) shows that there are newer designs that are good, just as there are undoubtedly bad designs, as it ever was.
 
I can't find it now but I had a copy of an email from the ex owner of a first of a similar size that had similar issues in the Irish Sea on a delivery trip with the new owner. about 8 years ago. In it he was basically saying the boat needs reefed early in **** conditions, and I think he said the main needed dropping sooner rather than later otherwise the gusts would cause broaching. If that was done , he said the boat would handle anything. Be interesting to know when the main was dropped in this situation and if the damage was caused by getting pooped or by a knockdown.
 
jimi said:
If that was done , he said the boat would handle anything.
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Years ago my F-i-Law had a MacWester Rowan 22 - we were going over to Bembridge in what for us was pretty nasty conditions - F-i-Law being less experienced questioned the boats ability to cope - my response was "don't worry - we'll give up long before the boat does" ...
 
RobbieW said:
A thought has evolved for me whilst reading this thread. I'm making the assumption that the boat was being taken to the LIBS site based on earlier comments. That implies fairly strict criteria on timing for yacht entry to the site as far as I recall - I delivered a boat for the show 4 years ago, there were pages of stuff from the PLA and organisers to read. As it was being sold as a mile building / experience trip, there were also presumably fixed joining dates for the crew. So we potentially have a trip with fixed joining and end locations / dates, in January along the Channel - previous comments have pointed out the inherent risk involved in such a plan.
Click to expand...

I've been thinking along the same lines. We regularly make an annual 'long trip', using a club boat with crew (and skipper) changes along the route. Each leg has a preset start and finish point, and preset start and finish times. But additionally, each leg has built in to it some excess time to allow for the possibility of bad weather.

Our cruises are run in the summer. Clearly if we were running legs into the winter season then we would allow for a greater probability of bad weather. But I'm not sure how much tolerance we would allow for a Solent to London trip in early January. I would expect at least 48 hours, and possibly more. Does anyone know how much spare time was built into this trip? Was it a poor passage plan, simply because the skipper was given insufficient time margin to allow for bad weather?
 
Hi everyone,

Been PM on this; out of office so a quick reply.

Hard to get hold of past data for CLV and Sandettie, but the forecast should tell the story.

The link below is to the surface pressure forecast from Weatheronline from the GFS model. This was from the 18UTC run of the mdoel available after 2130UTC on Monday evening.

It probably tells it's own story...
http://www.weatheronline.co.uk/cgi-...OD=&PANEL=1&ARCHIV=0&BASE=201201021800&HH=114

Simon
 
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