fireball
New member
And ferries that had been cancelled for 24 hours .... if it's too much for them ...
I think it was the same time frame ..
I think it was the same time frame ..
Helicopter Rescue off Dover
- Thread starter Vara
- Start date
Twister_Ken
Well-known member
Got those bendy wheels, though.
newman123
New member
wind force
With all due respect to the wind records I was there and the RNLI confirmed force 11 winds. They were with us soon after five but couldn't get a man on board because the conditions were so bad. It was about 7 by the time they did and we were not winched off until much later. Dover was closed as it was too dangerous to get in there and we were eventually towed (after several failed attempts) to slightly calmer water to allow the helicopter to lift four of us off. I have been in quite big seas before but this was something else...
With all due respect to the wind records I was there and the RNLI confirmed force 11 winds. They were with us soon after five but couldn't get a man on board because the conditions were so bad. It was about 7 by the time they did and we were not winched off until much later. Dover was closed as it was too dangerous to get in there and we were eventually towed (after several failed attempts) to slightly calmer water to allow the helicopter to lift four of us off. I have been in quite big seas before but this was something else...
prv
Well-known member
Me too (well, maybe not "any day") but "the right boat" here means a 600ton sailing ship whose storm sails have sheets made of steel chains. We had three days with the decks out of bounds (probably only a 10 for the middle one of those TBH) so us deckhands had no work to do. Everyone was advised to stay in their bunks when not busy, to avoid being thrown around and injured, so I spent nearly three days solid just lying comfortably in my bunk reading. Easiest time I've ever had on that ship by a long way!
Not all fun and games though; we had six injuries on the trip as a whole.
Pete
marina95
Member
Oooh. Now Charlie Borg has deleted himself from FB...
"The page you requested was not found"
Scotty_Tradewind
Well-known member
I've also experienced being on a trip in difficult conditions with a reckless skipper when I was starting to sail yachts and I feel really saddened by what the inexperienced members of this crew must have gone through.
I used to sail a Twister and a similar First 40.7 passed swmbo and I in a F6 going East, wind over tide, from Weymouth towards Lulworth a while back.
It broached some 5-6 lengths in front of us and we passed them as they sorted themselves out, we thought to possibly reef.
The skipper seemingly thought all was o.k. and set off again almost straight away, passed us the second time only to broach again, some 3-4 lengths in front and off to our starboard bow.
They then decided to put a reef in and later caught us up as we approached St Albans Head.
We got passed the Head and soon we would be feeling the full blast of the NE winds coming around Anvil Point.... They broached again!
The First are undoubtedly lovely boats and in the right hands can be sailed in very difficult conditions, but with a prat as a skipper with an inexperienced crew ???
As a cruiser who normally sails short handed, give me a steady old boat like mine where I know I'd stand a better chance in a real blow.
I used to sail a Twister and a similar First 40.7 passed swmbo and I in a F6 going East, wind over tide, from Weymouth towards Lulworth a while back.
It broached some 5-6 lengths in front of us and we passed them as they sorted themselves out, we thought to possibly reef.
The skipper seemingly thought all was o.k. and set off again almost straight away, passed us the second time only to broach again, some 3-4 lengths in front and off to our starboard bow.
They then decided to put a reef in and later caught us up as we approached St Albans Head.
We got passed the Head and soon we would be feeling the full blast of the NE winds coming around Anvil Point.... They broached again!
The First are undoubtedly lovely boats and in the right hands can be sailed in very difficult conditions, but with a prat as a skipper with an inexperienced crew ???
As a cruiser who normally sails short handed, give me a steady old boat like mine where I know I'd stand a better chance in a real blow.
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lenseman
Active member
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You can always try Linkedin for your next place to try?
and if you search on Twitter for "sailingboy55", his friends are still twittering to him but of course there is no reply.
He will have to come up sooner of later and reply to and acknowledge all the tweets he is receiving and not currently answering! :O
Judders
Active member
40.7s are poor boats, entirely the wrong shape for this sort of work, built down to a price and close inspection shows that many are held together with duck tape. I don't know if that's a troll Robin but if that is your idea of average (or better) then you need to up your standards. With the exception of mini tonners, the only boats that I have sailed that I would less likely pick for conditions such as those described is a First 40. However, this can not detract from the fact that it was the crew that broke before the boat and this is nearly always the case. No boat ever built will make up for the fact that the crew were exposed to weather that they were very unlikely to cope with. Would it have been different on a Swan 48? A Nic 55 or perhaps an Open 60? Well the motion undoubtedly has an effect on the crew, it seems that some people accept slamming as a fact of life but it needn't be. Even on the video where conditions must have calmd down, the slamming is startling and this has a terrible wearing effect on the crew, but had it been the Swan or the Nic, would the rolling not have been wearing too?
GlennG
Active member
Perlleease.... a flat bottomed tea tray in a short Channel chop? What's the nine words that sum it up: slam, slam, corkscrew, slam, slam, corkscrew, slam, slam, corkscrew... All the helm can do is worry about broaching.
As for leaving the main up; one of the first things I learned about going downwind is move the centre of effort forwards, e.g. dump the main, so the boat is both pulled along and is very easy to control and reef.
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fireball
New member
Oh yes ... one time we were on the edge of control (just SWMBO and myself onboard) was coming into Chi Harbour with full sail on a spring ebb with a F6 SW ... large waves to come through which tried to take control over the boat - they managed twice ... SWMBO offered to roll away the genoa - which was firmly turned down - the only sail I would've considered reducing would've been the mainsail - and only if we could've done it safely - as it was I knew it would be a short, wild ride - and we're both used to fast planing dinghies - so a yacht doing 10kts through the water was easy ...
Potentially doing similar last month - despite wishing I'd had the main up for the majority of the trip I was glad to just have the genoa out by the time it came to entering the harbour - doing 8 knots over the ground and 30 knots apparent wind over the deck was "interesting" ... but at no point were we out of control.
tat27
Member
Madness
I like many, read about this "adventure" first on the BBC website and then have been avidly reading this forum with my jaw dropping with the extra information that has become available.
I have completed many offshores in the Channel (7 Fastnets) and in the Med and experienced v strong winds, but usually on a boat I knew well and always with a trusted crew.
I started racing with Solent based sailing schools and I'm confident that they would not have approved of travel plans like Hot Liquid presumably did. Similarly an organisation like the RORC would not have started a race with a forecast that was given.
I like many, read about this "adventure" first on the BBC website and then have been avidly reading this forum with my jaw dropping with the extra information that has become available.
I have completed many offshores in the Channel (7 Fastnets) and in the Med and experienced v strong winds, but usually on a boat I knew well and always with a trusted crew.
I started racing with Solent based sailing schools and I'm confident that they would not have approved of travel plans like Hot Liquid presumably did. Similarly an organisation like the RORC would not have started a race with a forecast that was given.
colhel
Well-known member
The skipper's taken a bit of a battering on here, rightly or wrongly I'm not sure.
But I'm wondering how many other yachts were out the same day, (or have set out in similar conditionsin the past) and should they get a telling off too??
It does strike me as though this thread is trying to police peoples want for adventure.
But I'm wondering how many other yachts were out the same day, (or have set out in similar conditionsin the past) and should they get a telling off too??
It does strike me as though this thread is trying to police peoples want for adventure.
fireball
New member
The skipper is fine to call the trip as he sees fit - but he had a duty of care to the PAYING crew onboard. IMHO he disregarded their safety.
The iPlayer news clip showed a short interview with one of the crew who came back on the boat (ie not airlifted off) stated that they had been very scared whilst out there.
A great number of experienced sailors on here have condemned the thought of the trip.
I don't mind if you wish to risk your own life - but please don't risk other peoples lives - or expect the brave crews from the RNLI and Coastguard Helicopters to risk theirs because you've not got a suitable "plan b" ...
Seajet
...
Fireball,
agreed but that's just the legal, not moral side; I'd feel rather awful and probably right to be prosecuted if I got friends / guests 'just along for a spin' hurt or killed, and even with a strong, trained crew of chums - which this wasn't - this still applies.
colhel
Well-known member
Okay, the crew were inexperienced but surely a F10 forecast must have given them some indication as to what they were letting themselves in for?
Would not the RNLI have made some sort of risk assesment before launching a rescue? Would there have been more volunteers to join the rescue team than were actually needed?
I have been caught out in conditiond like these, and yes it was scary stuff and at the time I wanted it all to stop ,but looking back I'm so pleased I was there.
Would not the RNLI have made some sort of risk assesment before launching a rescue? Would there have been more volunteers to join the rescue team than were actually needed?
I have been caught out in conditiond like these, and yes it was scary stuff and at the time I wanted it all to stop ,but looking back I'm so pleased I was there.
Blueboatman
Well-known member
What if?
How about a new RYA ADDENDUM to commercial operators?
Sailing schools or those charging for berths on sub 50tonne boats should at all times consider the benefits, limits, comfort and safety of the crew as well as the commercial pressure to deliver on time in order to maintain a reputation/ reliability/ profit to the skipper and owners.
This factor to be doubly applied when operating in essentially malevolent seasons and foreseeable conditions.
Or set a ratio of hardcases to paying guests-when winter sailing in open water? What if it had been the skipper who fell and became injured, trapped, or knocked out by a gybe even, by a breaking sea coming aboard?
How about a new RYA ADDENDUM to commercial operators?
Sailing schools or those charging for berths on sub 50tonne boats should at all times consider the benefits, limits, comfort and safety of the crew as well as the commercial pressure to deliver on time in order to maintain a reputation/ reliability/ profit to the skipper and owners.
This factor to be doubly applied when operating in essentially malevolent seasons and foreseeable conditions.
Or set a ratio of hardcases to paying guests-when winter sailing in open water? What if it had been the skipper who fell and became injured, trapped, or knocked out by a gybe even, by a breaking sea coming aboard?
fireball
New member
I have been out in various craft that has tested the limit of the crews ability - always with friends/family - and always with their consent. If the conditions are marginal then we discuss the options. A few times I've consciously NOT taken someone when I believed they would be put at significant risk.
Whilst I would feel awful if someone had an accident on my boat I don't think I'd feel it right to be prosecuted for it - unless I'd been a total jackass!
Only once have I "forced" someone into sailing in adverse conditions - and I don't regret it - I knew he and I were capable of handling the boat, but he'd lost his confidence - so we went out intending to practice gybing - I decided it was too strong really so we just had a blast about - great time and boosted the helms confidence (yes I was crew!). Plan D was that we were within a harbour and could easily swim to shore and the last resort was that there were experienced crews at the clubhouse who would've launched the patrol boat to tow us in if we had really needed it.
I have been a skipper on what is essentially a charter vessel in adverse conditions - just out for a joy ride. Again, the backup plan was that there was a patrol boat available with the centres principle onboard. We were very careful with the plan and only 1 sailing vessel was allowed out - giving 1 to 1 boat cover.
Juan Twothree
Well-known member
In order for the crew to be safely winched off, the yacht and lifeboats had come close inshore off Deal, to get some shelter.
Hence the flat sea conditions in the video.
A friend on one of the lifeboats has posted some video on Facebook from earlier during the rescue, and it was VERY lively.
Glisferox
Member
If you look at the Shoreham Beach weather site (it's the best weather station around here).
http://www.shorehambeachweather.co.uk/
Click on graphs, the select 'Wind Speed Last 7 Days" you'll see it was averaging 25 - 30kts as they passed Brighton, building to about 43kts from midnight to early morning.
It was LW, with about 2m of water, so Shoreham and Brighton were not a good idea. I think I'd go for Newhaven with Eastbourne as a reserve.
To be frank, a hop to Gunwarf Quay, for a nibble and a dribble, then next day follow that glorious cold front up the channel, would have been a far better idea.
fireball
New member
My first trip across the channel was as crew on another boat. I wasn't sure as the wind was F6 NE - the skipper assured me that it was fine. It was fine, it wasn't a fantastic trip across because we had rain as well - but we were - as the skipper said we would be - fine... I put my trust in the skipper because he had more experience than me - both in his boat and in sailing across channel.
Ok - this wasn't a commercial charter - but the principal is the same - the inexperienced crew put their trust in their skipper. Ultimately it is the individual (adults) decision whether to go or not - but if they're already underway their choices become somewhat limited ...