Haitian sailors and equal opportunities

[Dominic]

nb original post header edited (hence context of subsequent posts)

Three years back I was in Haiti again.

The local Haitian commercial sailors run 40 foot boats up through the Bahamas to Florida with about 5 tons of cargo, usually plantains and charcoal (and some illegal immigrants from time to time).

These are wooden gaff rigged sloops. The boom is a wooden corkscrew - the straightest tree branch available, likewise the gaff. The sails are made from sheets, blankets and duvet covers donated by the Salvation Army, carefully sewn together. Very colourful but not "cutting edge".

Charts don´t exist. You use your fathers memory, passed on to you, and you look at the stars.
Zero electrics.

Bilge pump is a wooden tube with a flap; to be used regularly and frequently.

Nav lights at night are one paraffin hurricane lamp.

Harbour entries (no engines on their boats) are done with sweeps (big oars).

These guys can sail like demons and handle their boats and when they have a problem they either solve it, or (in the words of Blondie Haslar) drown like gentlemen. They have no radios to whinge with.

We need GPS, plotters, radar, SSB, VHF, charts, engines, gas cookers, fridges, EPIRBS, etc. They don´t.

Having been outsailed by a dugout canoe using bin liners for a jib at Isle La Vache on the south of Haiti I have now begun to learn to sail. The RYA made me an Instructor but I reckon you could learn more from these Haitian guys in a week than you could from a white man on a white plastic sloop in the Solent.

Then, after sailing in the East Coast of the USA, the UK and around Europe I have only ever seen one non-white on a yacht.
I have seen all the white classes, upper, middle and lower, sailing, but never a black sailor in the Western democracies. (Saw some black crew on a square rigger but never a black owner or master).

I watch the BBC and it is obvious that not all British citizens are white.

There are black sailors whose skills are way beyond ours.

So why are all the sailors around the UK white ? Or am I wrong ?

I only have white students at this sailing school. Why ?


<hr width=100% size=1><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by kimhollamby on 29/04/2003 11:03 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[claymore]

Re: Are Black People better sailors ?

The title of your post could well cause offense.
Your post appears at first glance to be commenting on the skills of local Haitian sailors and their ability to sail without the technical resources which are used to great effect elsewhere. It seems to end with an invitation to comment on equality of opportunity in Britain.
I'm happy to discuss the merits of a world without technology except that as we have the technology and use it it would appear something of a backwards facing discussion and could be summed up by the fact that technology used to enhance an experience not replace it, is fine. I'm not really prepared to get into a debate about multicultural Britain but accept fully that others may.
So what'll it be?

<hr width=100% size=1>regards
Claymore
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[tcm]

Blacks, Black sailors etc

This is a bit of a nonthread.

I think that anyone sailing boats all day every day will be better sailor than someone who doesn't. At a sunsail base in the carribean which had perhaps 200+ boats, they move boats to a working pontoon handy for cleaning and all supplies, then movem back to the pontoons with all the customers on. The guys doing the moving were quite incredibly gopod at close quarter manoevering, not really needing fenders.

But it did not occur to me that they were better at this because they were black. Nor because they were all male. Nor because the bulk of them had a full head of hair. Nor because they were all clean-shaven. I think they were gopod at it because they did it lots and lots. It was also something that was important amongst them, being able to handle a boat being seen as an admirable skill.

Sepretly, does referring to "blacks" really cause offence? I don't think it does in London area at least. There again, Claymore works in the education sector and risks the sack even if he says his chair is comfy, cos the Chair is his boss.


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[squidge]

Re: Blacks, Black sailors etc

Well said, I am surprised to read such a statment in this age, praise for the Haiti sailors on their home patch is one thing , comments on race are another and IMHO are not a suitable topic on this forum.

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[jimi]

Re: Are Black People better sailors ?

Well said. I was rather surprised to see this title and its implicit racial sentiments. Like anything else the label can give offence and in the context of a forum with such a wide and diverse cultural spread, it would be wise to avoid the use of language that could give offence.

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[claymore]

Re: Blacks, Black sailors etc

It doesn't take much to type in 'people' - although I see from your post that a vital thread twixt finger and brain appears to be malfunctioning this morning in your inability to resist throwing a 'p' into the middle of 'good' - this aside - my Chair likes to be thought of as comfy - his 'hands-on' management style is certainly working - at least with gay colleagues. For myself I'm happy to remain bearded and playing life with a straight bat - I had thought the use of terminology such as 'blacks' was rather like the 5 speed manual gearbox in America - an outmoded and historical factor and was rather disappointed to read it in the original thread.
Ah well, perhaps I should come down from the Ivory Tower and get a fix of reality.

<hr width=100% size=1>regards
Claymore
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[paulrossall]

Re: Title of post is offensive

Im this day and age I do not consider it appropriate to use such a title.

I am not sure what is going to be gained through debating the content of your post and what interest the post is to most users of this forum.

It is likely to result in comments that are a waste of space. (see following)
IMHO

 

[bob_tyler]

Re: Title of post is offensive

"this day and age"

Do you mean "now" or is that an old fashioned expression /forums/images/icons/cool.gif

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[Roberto]

Are Yellows even better sailors ?

Just back from Mekong delta, saw some astonishing piece of sailing skill

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[claymore]

Re: Title of post is offensive

I think it is a derivative of 'at this moment in time'

<hr width=100% size=1>regards
Claymore
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[Martin_Billings]

Dunno bout Haitian sailors but Steely Dan knew all about Haitian Divorce.

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[snowleopard]

congratulations to kim

on letting the thread stand despite pc pressure!

the haitian issue is nothing to do with race, you see that level of seamanship wherever the ubiquitous yamaha hasn't yet penetrated. it was the same around our coasts 100 years ago.

as for the lack of ethnic minorities in sailing, IMO the only question worth asking here is: is our house in order, i.e. are we making our sport exclusive? if not, let's leave it at that.

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[AndrewB]

"Are we making the sport exclusive?"

Well, are we? Not ostensibly, of course not, but maybe we do suffer from 'institutional racism'.

Not one local club I've ever belonged to has had Black (Afro-Caribbean) members, and precious few Asian. Nor are there ever any to be seen at the marinas I frequent. Granted there are (on average) social differences between Blacks and Whites which might affect the balance, but there are surely sufficient comfortably off Blacks in England to expect the sport to appeal to some of them. Certainly it does in countries like the Bahamas.

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[Twister_Ken]

Lest we forget...

...Thames sailing barges were originally engineless, and were famously sailed by "a man, a boy and a dog". Often into creeks and up to wharves that we'd hesitate to go near with our modern hi-tech boats.

My view, FWIW, is that anybody who does any job day-in, day-out will get to be very good at it, regardless of sex, race, religion or colour of eyes.

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[tcm]

Leftie handwringing : something should be done!

There is an unhealthy and interfering tendency amongst many in authority in the UK. They look at statistics and decide that it would be "correct" and "better" for the general makeup of all different races, religions, ages and sexes of the nation to be closely reflected in as many orgainsations as possible. This sounds like a Good Thing, so they set out to make something happen about it. This isn't new.

I was on an engineering course twenty years ago, and they decided that the "needed more women". So,pretty much every woman who applied got a place. I supose it was a nice idea, but a better aim would have been to produce better engineers, rather than better-looking engineers. Without exception, all 15 women aren't working in engineering these days. There may well have been some if not fifteen male people who would have made better engineers who were refused entrance to the courser as a result of this positive action. But we were all made to think what a great and bold step it was.

The poster of this thread worries that those who sail have white skin. Perhaps he might soon worry that they aren't younger, or approximately 50% female, or 30% over 65, 50% less intelligent, 50% more intelligent than the norm.

Of course, it's nonsense. Lots of factors affect the split of races in various jobs, in various parts of the country and even between different yet similar companies in the same country. Various groups and different sexes have different goals. Women protested loud and long for the vote over a century ago. Yet inthe engineering industry, I see no mass demonstrations of women who want to be tyre fitters and i hear of few who doodle and dream of working for a car company.

Provided that legislation is in place forbidding arbitrary disqualification, this patchwork of various tendencies and preferences presents no problem. In fact, it only becomes a problem when those in authority alert everyone to the situation. It promotes, reminds and preserves racial differences. The people on a sailing course might be tom, dick, doris or harriet. Of course, one would notice if they are all male, or all female. He's noticed that there none with black skin. But does trumpeting the fact that there are none with black skin make sailing more attractive to black people? I bet it doesn't. It's actually *more* discriminatory to worry that other groups are not represented. "Come to our sailing school - especially you're a black person! We notice these things and keep a tally, and so far we've had 176 black people on the course!"

Imho, a general and special feaure of the uk population is that we don't mark people down for the colour of their skin. In fact, we often don't notice. They're just people. They can be lazy or industrious, funny or boring, and we (in general) mark them up or down for those reasons alone. This is a big attraction for immigrants, not dole handouts. Imho, the red tape and dole and NI number delays stifle their freedom to get on with a career and (criminals aside, and we have plenty already) it is ridiculous to imagine that immigrants plan their new future forthemselves and their families based entirely upon around claiming the dole.

Imho, provided that the opportunities are there (and i beleive that they are) nothing at all need be done about the lack of black people sailing. Nor need anything be done about the preponderance of Scots in the snooker championships, nor the disproportinate number british-born black people who seem to be fast at running 100metres. They're just doing what they want as well as they can.

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[tcm]

Re: agreed. nm

.

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[Dominic]

Fair enough

A fair comment.

What I find curious is how "white" sailing is - despite there being obvious proof that it is not a "whites only" skill.

The real question I wanted to ask is "Why do I never see a black man in a yacht ?" but I thought the slightly obtuse approach might be more PC.<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by Dominic on 29/04/2003 14:12 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[Seafort]

OK here goes.

Just this once I'll start by stating that I would be classed as mulatto... Who really cares?

The title was in no way offensive to me, Its in the way you say it. If it does make any difference it comes down to "appropriateness" ie I would not expect to hear it at a lord mayors banquet. (Here I feel among friends).

All that stuff aside. The question did make me wonder, in Europe I "haven't seen another "sailor of colour"". /forums/images/icons/smile.gif When I look to my parents generation, "many" dream of returning "home" and would define a yacht as "A hole in the water into which you pour money to keep it open"!
Also I have never seen any of my caribbean family or friends swim at the "sea-side" in this country. They mostley think I'm mad for wanting a boat in these cruel seas.

Its another generation getting comfortably off now, more to be seen I think.

In the meantime give any "black/mulatto" guy on a yacht a wave, its probably me.
/forums/images/icons/smile.gif

ps subject to survey it will be a Westerly Longbow named Bequia of Hamble /forums/images/icons/wink.gif.


Dave.




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[snowleopard]

nice name but...

i'd rather be 'Hamble of Bequia'!

on the same principle that I'd rather be in the South Pacific dreaming of a hot shower than in a hot shower dreaming of the South Pacific.

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[Abigail]

Re: OK here goes.

Dave and Andrew B asked the right question (which I thought was clearly the point of the original post whatever the title) - are people excluded from sailing because of race or indeed anything else which shouldn't be a barrier. Such as gender.

I'd say that yes, sailing can seem a very exclusive sport - very white, very male. You've only got to see that very few black or ethnic minority sailors are on the warter, and how very few boats have female skippers, to think that some pattern is at work.

Of course, this is partly because of money (ie who has more of it, even if most of it always feel we haven't got enough for everything we want) but also because of all sorts of subtle and not so subtle attitudes. It didn't happen to me, but I've known women who went to sailing schools where they got an hour or so at the helm in a week because the boys hogged it all. I've heard more casual racism amongst sailors than I would ever usually hear in a pub, often starting from the casual assumption of national superiority, going via regretting the end of empire to less savoury comments.

So the thread is interesting if it is a debate about how to encourage more people who don't sail here, now in the UK into the sport - including looking at how some everyday language can be really offputting



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