Greek Cruising Tax update from the CA

[grumpygit]

This is what’s ironic about the Greek cruising tax. They copied a faulty model. And for some yachts it will now be significantly cheaper in tax to cruise in Croatia than Greece.

Given the similarities with the 2018 Croatian cruising tax, the Greeks obviously looked at Croatia, decided that they would like a chunk of this seemingly easily collected tax revenue, and copied large parts of it. (But obviously didn’t look to deeply into how tax payers would make their payments!).

What they didn’t realise was that the Croatian tax was not working properly and the Croatians were in the process of reducing the tax on some of the length bands because larger yachts were leaving Croatia to cruise elsewhere.

Whilst I feel sympathy for those with boats >12m who may now change their Greek cruising plans, I will have no sympathy with the Greek govt when some of the cruising yachts move elsewhere and their overall revenue dips.

The introduction of this tax so far has only caused anxiety and concern especially amongst non Greeks with yachts in Greece. It’s a strange way to treat a significant source of income in the islands.

Garold

I have not sailed Croatia since 2009 spending around 6 months there over a couple of years.
If memory serves for a 15m yacht it cost me around €240 for the year. It cost circa €55 per night in an ACI marina and they where starting to charge for anchoring in bays or using laid moorings, circa €7-10 which the latter I believe has grown immensely. The cost of eating out and shopping was average to our base at that time being Italy, but more expensive than Greece.

Where I wholly believe Greece has a totally diabolical tax regime and would do so much better by adopting a low tax system which would generate more income, they don't and it's just not in their psyche.
This push for the tax was brought on by the Troika and their push on Greece to raise money, and so they did.
I do find it surprising that they are adopting this tax in election year, main stream and local, Tsipras needs all the votes he can muster to stay in power.
But how or why would the government care about a few boats leaving, it's a brand new tax and from day one and the first boat to pay, it's profit so to speak, and they have an income.
If you don't like it and who would, there's two options, stay and pay or move on, but do it all for the right reasons. The grass is not always greener and the tax will soon become tomorrows news.

 

[Garold]

Just for clarity, we have an 11.5m yacht so the cruising tax in Croatia or Greece is manageable for us.

This year we will start in Greece, sail to Croatia and stay a while, and then probably head back to Greece later in the season.
So we will be paying cruising tax for the rest of the year - but probably only about €400 for the next 12 months.

I shan’t let it bother me but I understand that it may annoy others, and those with larger yachts may find it offends them enough to choose to cruise elsewhere. I wouldn’t be surprised to see the rates for larger yachts changed in the next year or two.

Garold

 

[Mr Cassandra]

I am now in Porto Rafti and yesterday met my Greek coast guard friend 4 stripe master sergeant,
He still had no idea about tax ,he said that the authorities were unable to cope with transferring the old paperwork system to digital, So with 3 weeks to go ,the people collecting the fee ,know nothing but rumours about it.
I am not saying it won't happen.

 

[Chris_Robb]

I am now in Porto Rafti and yesterday met my Greek coast guard friend 4 stripe master sergeant,
He still had no idea about tax ,he said that the authorities were unable to cope with transferring the old paperwork system to digital, So with 3 weeks to go ,the people collecting the fee ,know nothing but rumours about it.
I am not saying it won't happen.

Its an election year. If they dont get the tax going soon, I cannot see them continuing to spend on software development - its not ready yet - so I suspect there is a good chance of it being canned.

I will be given access to the test system to try some registrations etc. But no test system yet - only 4 weeks before take off.

I hope we can take advantage of one major concession they have made - If you are out of the water, you are Out of Use. I want this to be applied to the DEKPA, as the whole issue of stamping this stupid document is just plain ridiculous. That means if you are out of the water you dont have to rush back to get your document stamped in time or face fines.

 

[Mistroma]

Its an election year. If they dont get the tax going soon, I cannot see them continuing to spend on software development - its not ready yet - so I suspect there is a good chance of it being canned.

I will be given access to the test system to try some registrations etc. But no test system yet - only 4 weeks before take off.

I hope we can take advantage of one major concession they have made - If you are out of the water, you are Out of Use. I want this to be applied to the DEKPA, as the whole issue of stamping this stupid document is just plain ridiculous. That means if you are out of the water you dont have to rush back to get your document stamped in time or face fines.

It would be worth taking detailed screenshots of any bugs found to prove that there really is a problem if you do get access to the test system. At least that might provide a further delay while it is fixed.

Could I suggest:
1) Use an old or poorly supported browser (actually, a really new one might be a good idea as it's a Greek system)
2) Do not include any references to Operating System or Browser build and version numbers
3) Do not include exact details of procedure used to discover the fault (but do keep notes to replicate on demand)
4) Enter data in any weird order you like and make certain you use odd characters
5) Leave out data and include ridiculously long names and addresses
6) Remember that many boat names will be in French, Gaelic or Cyrillic script (even Hiragana, Katakana or Kanji)

Similar techniques have proven to be extremely useful in tracking bugs. I've lot count of how many bug reports simply claimed system XXXX is broken with no further evidence supplied. IT guys working on the system won't be surprised by really rubbish bug reports. Proof the bug actually exists is useful, even with no clue about how to replicate it.

Registering a New Zealand boat from "Taumatawhakatangihangakoauauotamateaturipukakapikimaungahoronukupokaiwhenuakitanatahu" might be a good start. Especially if the owner is from "Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch" in Wales.

 

[Chris_Robb]

It would be worth taking detailed screenshots of any bugs found to prove that there really is a problem if you do get access to the test system. At least that might provide a further delay while it is fixed.

Could I suggest:
1) Use an old or poorly supported browser (actually, a really new one might be a good idea as it's a Greek system)
2) Do not include any references to Operating System or Browser build and version numbers
3) Do not include exact details of procedure used to discover the fault (but do keep notes to replicate on demand)
4) Enter data in any weird order you like and make certain you use odd characters
5) Leave out data and include ridiculously long names and addresses
6) Remember that many boat names will be in French, Gaelic or Cyrillic script (even Hiragana, Katakana or Kanji)

Similar techniques have proven to be extremely useful in tracking bugs. I've lot count of how many bug reports simply claimed system XXXX is broken with no further evidence supplied. IT guys working on the system won't be surprised by really rubbish bug reports. Proof the bug actually exists is useful, even with no clue about how to replicate it.

Registering a New Zealand boat from "Taumatawhakatangihangakoauauotamateaturipukakapikimaungahoronukupokaiwhenuakitanatahu" might be a good start. Especially if the owner is from "Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch" in Wales.

Ha ha. I've done plenty of system breaking testing in the old days.... A long time ago now.

I will be away from 23rd April to 6th May without a decent screen however the real test is that it scales properly for mobile devices.....

The payments system should be the only thing that works as it's SEPA.
However it would be much better to take something like world pay or PayPal to use credit cards on line. So much more streamlined and all the integration code will be out there already.. .... how will they manage load testing......

My bet is that there will be a further delay as I really can't see how the testing could be run in a matter of weeks plus bug fixes and retesting.

 

[andrejv]

Registering a New Zealand boat from "Taumatawhakatangihangakoauauotamateaturipukakapikimaungahoronukupokaiwhenuakitanatahu" might be a good start. Especially if the owner is from "Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch" in Wales.

And the owner name is Điđi Žišković, with the temporary residence in Čižići.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Its about time they brought the Fxxxxing thing in or so say they not so some of us can fix our cruising plain .
The way is going now it be June July and we still won't know .
Did I read somewhere that T May is taken over organised the tax ?

 

[vyv_cox]

Yesterday I was talking to our car rental friends about the equivalent for their cars. It's a similar nightmare for them, lodging the documents with police when demand is low in winter, additional charges appearing at no notice, etc. Something Greeks have to contend with on a daily basis, so why should we be different?

 

[Fiddlesticks]

And the owner name is Điđi Žišković, with the temporary residence in Čižići.

For a real laugh, call your boat '; delete from systables;

 

[laika]

For a real laugh, call your boat '; delete from systables;

Obligatory xkcd reference:

 

[Chris_Robb]

Obligatory xkcd reference:

Yes - I bet they will not have sanitised the input - I will try all these examples - though I am not sure how to get some of the characters

 

[Fiddlesticks]

˙ʇlnɔᴉɟɟᴉp ʇɐɥʇ ʇou s,ʇI

 

[macd]

Yes - I bet they will not have sanitised the input - I will try all these examples - though I am not sure how to get some of the characters

Copy and paste?

 

[Chris_Robb]

Copy and paste?

Yeah..... doh

ʇlnɔᴉɟɟᴉp ʇɐɥʇ ʇou s,ʇI.

It works.�� well of course it would have... Just didn't think of it.

 

[macd]

Yeah..... doh

You've had a long, trying winter, Chris. For which, many thanks.

 

[BurnitBlue]

Just got this email from Ionian Marine Boatyard. They insist that a to prove a boat is out of service the yacht's documents MUST be handed to the port police OR PAY THE TAX (via an agent if the owner is not present). It seems we must get it in writing that the English word EXEMPT means the same as the Greek understanding of the greek word for EXEMPT. This could cause confusion that puts more money in the Greek coffers because some owners may be presented with a large bill for tax when they get down to their boats. We need clarification in writing not relying on ope and wishfull thinking.

Dear customers,
The TEPAI was postponed to 9-5-2019 as published at FEK B’ 1078/01.04.2019.
Further to our last announcement concerning the implementation of the TEPAI and the numerous questions that we received, we would like to clarify the following.
You have the choice to put your yacht “Out of Use”, or pay the tax.
According to 2.4 in the FAQ (see attached) “Ships are exempt from payment of the TEPAI for as long as they are seized; classified as traditional ship; decommissioned, or is at an “out of use” status (immobility) certified by the Port Authority.”
This means that in order to be exempted from this tax you have to prove that the boat is not in use to the port Police. An “out of use” status is not only for boats in the water which aren’t in use, but for the boats on land as well.
So, according to 6.4 and 6.5 in the FAQ, if you are not in Greece and not planning to come, you will need to authorize someone to submit to the Port Police the Registry of the boat and declare the boat as “out of use”. This authorization should be done by a Notary and translated in Greek.
The Pleasure Craft Traffic Document (DEKPA) is not to be confused with the new tax. In order to issue or attest a Pleasure Craft Traffic Document (DEKPA), you need to pay at least the TEPAI for the month in which the form is issued or attested. From that point onwards, the TEPAI shall be paid as per the relevant clarifications. In order to issue a Transit Log, payment of the TEPAI is equally required.
In the future it will be launched a web platform for e-TEPAI.
Please do not reply to this e-mail. If we have any further information concerning this tax we will make a further announcement.
Best Regards,
Ionion Marine AE
T: +30 26820 24305

 

[BurnitBlue]

Also if the Ionian Marine Lawyer is correct then a strange situation will develop after May 9th for owners who have not handed in the boats registration to the Port police, the boat will legally by their definition be a "boat in use" but not paid the tax so a violation fine of 10 times the amount will be due.

Wow a boat over twelve meters with an owner arriving late summer thinking he did not need to visit the Port Police with the documents could be in for a nasty shock.

 

[vyv_cox]

As ever with things Greek, Leros marina have issued a notice saying exactly the opposite. Their chairman, a lawyer in Athens, has apparently had it confirmed by PP that ashore means out of use.

Initially they offered to collect papers from boats ashore and deliver them to PP to comply with out of use requirements but subsequently it was confirmed that this was not necessary.

 

[BurnitBlue]

As ever with things Greek, Leros marina have issued a notice saying exactly the opposite. Their chairman, a lawyer in Athens, has apparently had it confirmed by PP that ashore means out of use.

Initially they offered to collect papers from boats ashore and deliver them to PP to comply with out of use requirements but subsequently it was confirmed that this was not necessary.

I think that the law as written is that a boat ashore is obviously not sailing (out of use is another thing entirely) and any interpretation on the law is just a mitigating circumstance. I am not a lawyer but two members of my family are and I overhear enough legal chit chat to pick up about a written law and some ones interpretation of it. As it stands the written law considers a boat "in use" unless the documents have been surrendered.

Also, when an owner who is present in Greece hands the boats documents in to the Port Police he could be asked for a hotel receipt to prove that he is not sleeping on the boat while working on it and putting the boat back "in use" regardless where it is.

Ok I am looking at this law as it is written. Mitigation and interpretation is a matter for a court. The Police have a duty to apply the letter of the written law. This is the main reason I want to leave Greece. This a bad law, a boat ashore in not in Greek waters. Neither is a boat ashore in Italy to stretch the meaning to the extreme. The essence is in the definitions.