Greece Port Police Incident - Bureaucracy or Corruption

[Hardmy]

@BurnitBlue

I am learning from people who make mistakes, from those people who dare to disclose them to others and take the risk to be exposed to harsh critisicm.
I learned about greek PP peculiarities.
I learned about the entry in Killini harbour.

"We all make mistakes": Maybe you want to share your worst mishap at sea so I can learn again?

 

[charles_reed]

Which is why the Greeks introduced the "new" boat tax (TPP). Or should I not have mentioned that?

Well the tax is on the statute book, and "most" PP offices stopped collecting harbour and light dues on 04/08/2014, leaving it to "others" to collect berthing fees.
Collection is (in my experience) patchy - where there are existing Harbour authorities (ie Rethymion, Chania) they are doing it. I arrived in Chania @ 18:10 and left again @ 09:50 the following morning, at which point the berthingmaster came out and waved a lazy-line @ me. No charges, or approaches for charges, Heraklion, Kythera, Monemvassia, Kithnos, Koufos, Nea Marmaris, Limenas Thassos - all chargeable harbours (formerly) and visited since August 4th (excluding about the same number of anchorages.

 

[Melody]

I did not mention registration, did I

I'm not sure who mentioned registration but someone in this thread said you could only register a boat on the Hellenic Registry if you were Greek, so I was responding to that.

as you want to talk about this, how is it that I can see so many big yachts which I know are owned by Greeks from my balcony here which all have UK flags? There are even more in the port of Vouliagmeni near Athens.

They are owned by Greeks who have houses or companies in the UK. The UK is pretty lax about what is required to be able to register a boat with British flag, (much to the irritation of some Greek tax officials). If you own a Greek flagged boat, you will need to have given your tax number when purchasing it and you need to declare it on your tax return. This mean the tax office can check if you've declared enough income to afford a boat of that type. Wealthy tax-dodgers want to avoid this and lots of them own property in the UK so can produce utility bills etc to prove residence. The UK doesn't have any sort of asset register or require people to declare vehicles or boats they own, as we do in Greece.

The main reason for introducing tax on foreign flagged boats kept in Greece is to try to catch these people, but unfortunately it affects other innocent foreign boats as well.

 

[daveyw]

Some friends, who are sailing my boat in the Peleponnese at the minute...................

Incidently, as a part owner of a British registered boat in Greece, I was under the impression it was not allowed to loan your boat to someone else. The authorities would consider it a charter which unless you were a legit charter business would open a whole can of worms!

 

[Tranona]

Incidently, as a part owner of a British registered boat in Greece, I was under the impression it was not allowed to loan your boat to someone else. The authorities would consider it a charter which unless you were a legit charter business would open a whole can of worms!

It seems to be quite acceptable if the owner provides a letter of authorisation to cover the non owning skipper, together with a crew list and a letter notifying the insurer that the skipper is using the boat with your permission. That is what I did went I lent my boat to others and what would be done if for example one employed a delivery skipper.

 

[Ken_Irby]

I'm not sure who mentioned registration but someone in this thread said you could only register a boat on the Hellenic Registry if you were Greek, so I was responding to that.



They are owned by Greeks who have houses or companies in the UK. The UK is pretty lax about what is required to be able to register a boat with British flag, (much to the irritation of some Greek tax officials). If you own a Greek flagged boat, you will need to have given your tax number when purchasing it and you need to declare it on your tax return. This mean the tax office can check if you've declared enough income to afford a boat of that type. Wealthy tax-dodgers want to avoid this and lots of them own property in the UK so can produce utility bills etc to prove residence. The UK doesn't have any sort of asset register or require people to declare vehicles or boats they own, as we do in Greece.

The main reason for introducing tax on foreign flagged boats kept in Greece is to try to catch these people, but unfortunately it affects other innocent foreign boats as well.

I live in a house in Greece which my husband of two years family owns. It, like many houses in Greece is not on any "asset register", that is the problem. When I worked in England, I was some days working on the UK Register of Land which I remember thinking is something that Greece then needed. We are a little ashamed that foreigners are caught up in getting rich Greeks to pay their share. Not all of the Greek boats with red flags have properties in UK. I would think that there are only a few. It is a joke in Greece how easy it is to get a UK registration. A well known Greek person in Birmingham arranges it easily. Registration in Wilmington Delaware USA is now also becoming frequent. If these did not happen then maybe the passing of the new tax law would not have happened.

Kentrina Irby-Fafoutis

 

[jimbaerselman]

Last month I comprehensibly updated http://www.jimbsail.info/greece - it describes the current Greek regulations affecting visiting boats. I think it answers the questions posed on this thread about boat procedures. But we all make mistakes!

If you see any, please let me know! Or if you think something is missing.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Off the cuff, my understanding is:

British Part 1 registration is available to EU residents and legal entities (plus a few others) which have UK based representatives , subject to initial inspections which confirms the boat is what it says it is, and that title rests with the registrant. Under 24m, no UK regulations are enforced about crews or equipment. It proves title and records liens - as long as both parties tell the register . . . £125, plus costs of initial proofs

British Part 111 registration is available to EU residents (plus some others) who declare they are UK residents for 185 days or more a year (not necessarily UK nationality) and the boat is below 24m LOA. At £25, with no inspections or regulations about crews etc, it's a snip. It proves nothing except that the boat was once on a UK list

Real detail at http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/registering-your-pleasure-craft

I suspect one or two applicants for part 111 three lost their diaries . . .

And I wonder how those who toddle around the world on part 111 would prove their UK residence? Hmmm. Porky pies tonight . . .

Jim - perhaps immigration might have a silver lining - as they are self confessed residents of the UK, they are now liable to UK taxes. Next stop HMRC to explain how they can get more dosh into the coffers to pay for the NHS!

 

[charles_reed]

Jim - perhaps immigration might have a silver lining - as they are self confessed residents of the UK, they are now liable to UK taxes. Next stop HMRC to explain how they can get more dosh into the coffers to pay for the NHS!

Immigrants from the EU contribute a nett £4.96bn to the economy and £32million nett to to UK government income, immigrants from outside the EU draw £118million and we Brits extract from our GNP £591 million.
Never were so many people more misguided about so few...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29910497

Unfortunately PC prevents candour on the matter and it's not helped by charismatic wide-boys like Farage who, give him his due, made an issue out of peoples' general grievances with kleptocrat Whitehall.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Immigrants from the EU contribute a nett £4.96bn to the economy and £32million nett to to UK government income, immigrants from outside the EU draw £118million and we Brits extract from our GNP £591 million.
Never were so many people more misguided about so few...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29910497

Unfortunately PC prevents candour on the matter and it's not helped by charismatic wide-boys like Farage who, give him his due, made an issue out of peoples' general grievances with kleptocrat Whitehall.

Charles, my point is that these Greeks and Turks who register on SSR and have said they are here 185 days of the year are just hiding assets from their own governments, - and in all likelihood dont pay any tax here - but perhaps should - or should be removed from SSR. SSR is perhaps in collusion to defraud foreign governments by its negligence.

I agree entirely about your point on immigration - in general it has been good for the UK - of course with the proviso that the benefit migrants perhaps do not contribute and perhaps should not receive any benefit at all until they have contributed for a significant time.

In general European Free movement of labour is a good thing - the emphasis being on "labour". Dave has stressed this, but it does not get reported in the media - especially the Beeb. Most other things about the EU stink and it needs reform from top to bottom - which of course has no chance of happening as the draw of the gravy train for politicians to just too great.

 

[Davy_S]

You can't do that as a non Greek cannot have a boat on the Greek register

Tranona posted the above, which surprised me as I consider that Tranona posts good reliable information.
However that fact is you Can! I should know

 

[Tranona]

Tranona posted the above, which surprised me as I consider that Tranona posts good reliable information.
However that fact is you Can! I should know

I realise now that I am probably out of date on the details and I should have qualified my statement. My situation was in 2001 when the advice was that I could not as a non resident non national operate my boat as a charter boat, it had to be on the Greek register in the name of a Greek resident (or company). I know later the law was changed following an EC ruling that a charter boat could operate under the UK flag, but I kept mine under the Greek flag. When it came out of the charter agreement in 2007 and I wanted to transfer the registration to me personally, the advice was that as a non resident it had to be removed from the register and title transferred to me but not the registration. I understood that I had to be Greek resident to register the boat as a private boat in Greece - and I am not. So only alternative is the SSR (without going through the Part 1 measurement) but the boat remained in Greece for the next 4 years. That is what cost me 800 Euros in lawyers fees (not the SSR bit, of course).

Hope this clarifies.

 

[Davy_S]

Hope this clarifies.

Not a problem, the Greeks are not known for making things easy! Even now, if I ask three Greek accountants the same question, I will get three different answers! Regarding boat registration, (certainly small boats) you can register the boat on the Greek registry if you have a greek tax number and the use of a Greek address. Its quite painless really and involves the Port Police, plus a visit to the tax office, I have done it a couple of times. You do pay tax on purchase, off the top of my head it was less than 1%. However you could be liable for impuned income,ie, simply have to prove that you have brought enough money into Greece to pay for its upkeep, or they will assume that you have earned the money in Greece and tax you accordingly. One or two Greek friends have had a nasty surprise via the taxman regarding their expensive old cars!

 

[jimbaerselman]

Regarding boat registration, (certainly small boats) you can register the boat on the Greek registry if you have a greek tax number and the use of a Greek address. <snip> However you could be liable for impuned income,ie, simply have to prove that you have brought enough money into Greece to pay for its upkeep, or they will assume that you have earned the money in Greece and tax you accordingly.

Yes. To register a car or motorbike a couple of years back you had to have a residence permit (I don't know whether that's still the case), and certainly to keep a car or motorbike in Greece, it had to be "imported" - re-registered into the Greek system (although not necessarily changing its registration plate if import is temporary).

Here's hoping the don't introduce the same rules for boats (they're entitled to) as a means to collect the TPP tax from foreign registered boats. The ability to keep an EU boat within Greece for as long as you wish without having to import it is a valuable freedom.

 

[Davy_S]

The residence permit was deemed illegal a few years ago but as is the norm, no one told the Greeks. You are supposed to register with the police now, you are given a card that does not expire, unlike the 5 year residence permit. You can buy a car, boat or scooter as long as you have a tax number, (I have bought all three) To my way of thinking, it is pointless registering a Brit car in Greece.
I imported a Brit registered small boat to Greece years ago, it was towed from the uk, I insured the boat with a Greek company, in Greece you need a qualification if the engine is over 30hp, mine was 140hp, I produced my qualifications and got insured. I could use the boat legally for six months, then drag it up to my mountain shack for the winter. In reality, no one cared, I could and did use it whenever I wanted.
I do not think that even the Greeks will kill the goose that lays the golden eggs, a lot of Taverna owners are outraged at their government, thinking that they will drive the wallets (punters) away!

 

[Chris_Robb]

Ravi, I have been trying to contact you for some more information on your incident.

I am currently talking with the Hellenic Coast Guard trying to get the regulation changed. I think we have a good chance as it is beginning to appear that that there may be wrong instructions issued by the British Embassy.

Can you please contact me quite urgently - see your private messages for contact details.

 

[Steve Clayton]

Could I ask "Hardmy" to resize his picture (smaller)

An interesting thread but I'm going dizzy what with scrolling right and then scrolling left