RichardS
N/A
Of course it's a scam. It happens to be a "Government approved" scam but, as they say, if it quacks and looks like a duck, it is a duck!
Richard
Greece Port Police Incident - Bureaucracy or Corruption
- Thread starter Ravi
- Start date
Of course it's a scam. It happens to be a "Government approved" scam but, as they say, if it quacks and looks like a duck, it is a duck!
Richard
Cardo
Active member
I was told of a chap who had some engine problem and called the CG just to inform them, including the fact he was going to sort it out himself. More of a "let other ships around me know" kind of thing. He was able to fix it and went into the next port quite happily. PP met him there and stiffed him for the surveyor bill. Didn't even come out to help! As above, a government approved scam.
Problem arises when UK accustomed sailors, especially around the Solent, visit places like Greece. One is too quick to get on the VHF as soon as any issue crops up. Granted, this is what the RNLI would like you to do, their adage is they'd rather have 100 (1000? More?) unnecessary call outs than one fatality because they didn't think it was necessary. Greece is the polar opposite.
Lesson to be learned? Only call for help (or even to advise of problems) in Greece if you are in serious need of help.
Problem arises when UK accustomed sailors, especially around the Solent, visit places like Greece. One is too quick to get on the VHF as soon as any issue crops up. Granted, this is what the RNLI would like you to do, their adage is they'd rather have 100 (1000? More?) unnecessary call outs than one fatality because they didn't think it was necessary. Greece is the polar opposite.
Lesson to be learned? Only call for help (or even to advise of problems) in Greece if you are in serious need of help.
Tony Cross
Well-known member
Yup, Little Roundtop is a houseboat again! We'll still be here until at least May next year. In March and April keep a close eye on the weather, we still get storms in those months (especially March) and with any strong wind (from anywhere) the seas in the straits at each end of the island build quite quickly, 4m or even 5m seas are not uncommon there in strong winds. I assume you have a copy of my pilot for Crete? It can be downloaded from http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/25934908/Crete%20Pilot.pdf.
Just a thought....do you think we'll be ok spending the winter in the same marina?
sailaboutvic
Well-known member
Just a thought....do you think we'll be ok spending the winter in the same marina?
What two old sea dogs kicking a football about for a few months . I think we managed that , you might have to put a good word in for me for a good discount , you know us cockney love a deal .
You nearly sew us the other week , as we got so fed up waiting for a weather window we was about to give Lefkas a miss and go to crete in stead , but a couple of very long days and a little luck and we now well North again .
Thanks for the link but somewhere I have it .
charles_reed
Active member
No scam - totally consistent.
If you put out a distress message or have to be towed in the Port Police are bound by law to impound the boat and not allow you to sail out until the boat has been surveyed by a (Greek qualified) surveyor.
Like many things Greek it's a money-printing licence issued to a small interest group by a past government.
Perhaps our reliance on the RNLI (Get you home service) have blinded us to the fact that irresponsible calls for help will ALWAYS result in a charge to the caller, in Greece, France, Italy, Croatia and Spain.
Ravi
Active member
A Stupid mistake. Great sailor because he can handle heavy weather, sail on and off pontoons or in and out of an anchorages rather better than most - and regularly does.
The mainsail tore (it was windy!).
Thanks for the informative advice about avoiding calls for assistance in Greece. I was vaguely aware of the issue but it has been brought home to me now.
The good news is that my friend has been given his papers back by the PP and is sailing Eris to her new winter home in Kalamata.
Ken_Irby
N/A
The way that the Greece officials look at it is "Who's word do we have that it was merely a "running out of fuel""? situation. What if it was an air leak in the fuel system and could have come again later, after air removal bleeding, perhaps when in front of a large ferry. Maybe, you should ask of yourself, if it was good to let someone go to sea in your boat without checking that he had enough fuel for the journey? your boat has no spare cans of diesel? Not wishing to be offending.
The Greek Port Police/ Coastguard have some/a lot of your old UK lifeboats but they are not there for philanthropic reasons, I think!
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Ravi
Active member
1. If you read my posts, you will see that I have repeatedly said that I have no issue with the requirement for a check that the boat is seaworthy. It is the 500 euro charge for an engineer to watch the engine start, run and then stop, that I think is extortionate. Based on the thoroughness of this inspection, I think that your theory about the PP wanting to ascertain that it wasn't something else, like an airleak, is being overly generous to their operational efficiency! Nope, they can be utterly charming and even helpful, but the PP really are a bunch comically bureaucratic box tickers. If you consider 3000 Euros an hour to be a reasonable rate to pay an engineer to watch an engine run, I am happy to come and service your engine for you, anytime!
2. Yes, spare cans of diesel. But, once they have been poured in the tank, it is a bugger to pump it through the engine with the little Yanmar pump - even when the boat is not bucking around on big seas.
3. In the meant time, mainsail torn, boat with limited manoeuvrability, the CORRECT thing to do is issue a Pan Pan (which in French, literally means "breakdown"). As just about everyone on here will know, a Pan Pan is not a request for a tow. It is to notify surrounding shipping that there is a situation that does NOT involve danger to life or vessel, but that the vessel is not fully operational. It is NOT a request for assistance. In this case, the OFFERED tow was welcomed, but ultimately unnecessary, since they just towed him to an anchorage, to which he could have sailed under genoa, and not to the sheltered quay which was required by the conditions. He, later, then made his own way onto the quay.
As JimB and others have pointed out, calling a Pan Pan, however correct, in protocol, is a daft thing to do in Greece. Mind you, it is not that clever to call one in the UK. I called a Pan Pan in the Sound of Jura and ended up being rammed by an ocean class RNLI lifeboat! But that is another story.
For now, I am glad that all seems to have ended well and Eris on her way!
Ken_Irby
N/A
Oh! My English is not too good but I thought that "Pan Pan" said "Panic, panic". I think it is just a coincidence that it is near to in writing of the French "Paen" but not in meaning. This is not important here.
If your friend knew enough about diesel engines to be safe, perhaps he would be properly scared of running his tank dry and what it means to get the system air free and avoid this by using the spare fuel containers when in a safe port? I repeat - I do not wish to offend.
About the cost, the surveyor must take the "evthini" for your vessel's safety afterwards by law in Greece until it reaches the next port. This is like liability or legal responsibility in English and he must hold insurance cover for this. This is considered as very significant. Sometimes, with some, they do not buy this insurance, it must be pointed out.
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Ravi
Active member
I couldn't agree with you more that having insufficient fuel setting out on a journey (especially a short journey of just 1.5 NM to move the boat to shelter) is plain stupid and lazy. But, everyone makes mistakes and, hopefully, learns from them. After this fiasco, I doubt he will make that mistake, again!
Sadly, the other lesson is that the dubious practice of the 'restricted' trade of Greece's Nautical Surveyors being able to charge unreasonable fees makes the perfectly reasonable act of calling a Pan Pan inadvisable in Greek waters, since you will, effectively, be 'fined' 500 euros for making a Pan Pan call!. Hopefully, as Greece sorts its problems out and competition is introduced, these things will disappear.
sailaboutvic
Well-known member
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Tony Cross
Well-known member
I've been caught out by the PAN-PAN problem in Greece but I'm a little uneasy by what seems to be a general opinion on this thread that it's best not to issue a PAN-PAN at all in Greek waters. That I can't agree with. For one thing, it's better to pay €500 (or whatever) than it is to risk losing the boat or injuring yourself or the crew.
To illustrate what I mean I'll describe the events that caused me to issue a PAN-PAN earlier this year. Please feel free to tell me what I could have done differently.
In late May we had anchored for the night in the bay about a mile east of the port of Killini on the south side of the Gulf of Patras. We intended to make an early start heading north the next morning. Just as the sun went down (though it was still light of course) we became aware that the sea was very disturbed and the anchor chain was straight out and tight. A quick look to windward showed a thunderstorm (complete with lightning) bearing (apparently) down on us from the north. We decided to head into the port of Killini for the night since we didn't fancy sitting on a lee shore in a thunderstorm.
This was our first time at Killini so we didn't know it at all. A look at our copy of Heikell, the paper charts and my chartplotter showed clear water (and at least 3m) from where we were due west into the fishing port. So we recovered the anchor and motored slowly west aiming straight for the gap between the port and starboard light towers at the entrance to the fishing port. We could see large yachts inside so we knew there was good depth. As we approached the fishing port I was aware of a red can floating away to my right, it was not in line with anthing and I assumed (dangerous I know) that it was something to do with the ferry port next door.
About 50 metres out I got SWMBO to go forward to get the fenders out of our bow locker and rig them for a stern-to mooring. Just as she'd started we ran aground on a sandbank. The forward hatch cover fell on SWMBOs hand and she thought her wrist was broken. She came back into the cockpit and it swelled up like a grapefruit. The wind from the approaching thunderstorm was blowing us hard onto the sand bank and no amount of forward and reverse would get me off. We have a big bulb on our keel and all I was doing was digging a hole for the wind to blow me in to.
We were right off the port and people could see us. I called Killini port control three times on Ch16 and the 3 times on Ch12 and go no responses at all.
So here was my dilemma. We were hard aground, SWMBO was injured and I didn't know how bad, the thunderstorm was approaching and if it had hit us stuck there we'd possibly have lost the boat, not to mention ourselves. I didn't even know whether at that stage SWMBO would be able to swim. I was aware of the likely repercussions of issuing a PAN-PAN, I've come across this issue before (the CA has been making all it's members aware of this for some time now) but I felt at that stage I had little other choice. Nobody in the port was taking any notice of us, yet they must have know we were aground, I had no response from the port at all on VHF and I need to get us off and get SWMBO to hospital. So I called PAN-PAN. Olympia Radio were on immediately, though they seemed more interested in collecting information, but that's just how it felt at the time I think. They did get a fishing boat out to help pull us off the sandbank (once I'd convinced him to pull my bows into the wind I was pretty much able to motor off).
The tow cost us €200 and the "survey" cost us €200 but the boat is undamaged (I went underneath to check the keel joint the next day) and SWMBOs wrist was seen by doctors at the nearby hospital. It wasn't broken, just bruised, and it's now fine. Although I'd rather not have paid €400 that's cheaper than the alternatives. In the same situation I'd do the same thing again.
BTW. The red buoy marks the safe channel into Killini, but it's only obvious if you approach from the north. Approaching from the east as we did and the buoy makes no sense. I told the PP that they should moor four or five small red buoys to mark the edge of the sandbank, if I'd seen those the meaning of the big red buoy would have become apparent. And we're not the only people to run aground on that sandbank, I've heard from six other people who have done the same thing. They all ran aground in calm weather and were able to motor off though.
To illustrate what I mean I'll describe the events that caused me to issue a PAN-PAN earlier this year. Please feel free to tell me what I could have done differently.
In late May we had anchored for the night in the bay about a mile east of the port of Killini on the south side of the Gulf of Patras. We intended to make an early start heading north the next morning. Just as the sun went down (though it was still light of course) we became aware that the sea was very disturbed and the anchor chain was straight out and tight. A quick look to windward showed a thunderstorm (complete with lightning) bearing (apparently) down on us from the north. We decided to head into the port of Killini for the night since we didn't fancy sitting on a lee shore in a thunderstorm.
This was our first time at Killini so we didn't know it at all. A look at our copy of Heikell, the paper charts and my chartplotter showed clear water (and at least 3m) from where we were due west into the fishing port. So we recovered the anchor and motored slowly west aiming straight for the gap between the port and starboard light towers at the entrance to the fishing port. We could see large yachts inside so we knew there was good depth. As we approached the fishing port I was aware of a red can floating away to my right, it was not in line with anthing and I assumed (dangerous I know) that it was something to do with the ferry port next door.
About 50 metres out I got SWMBO to go forward to get the fenders out of our bow locker and rig them for a stern-to mooring. Just as she'd started we ran aground on a sandbank. The forward hatch cover fell on SWMBOs hand and she thought her wrist was broken. She came back into the cockpit and it swelled up like a grapefruit. The wind from the approaching thunderstorm was blowing us hard onto the sand bank and no amount of forward and reverse would get me off. We have a big bulb on our keel and all I was doing was digging a hole for the wind to blow me in to.
We were right off the port and people could see us. I called Killini port control three times on Ch16 and the 3 times on Ch12 and go no responses at all.
So here was my dilemma. We were hard aground, SWMBO was injured and I didn't know how bad, the thunderstorm was approaching and if it had hit us stuck there we'd possibly have lost the boat, not to mention ourselves. I didn't even know whether at that stage SWMBO would be able to swim. I was aware of the likely repercussions of issuing a PAN-PAN, I've come across this issue before (the CA has been making all it's members aware of this for some time now) but I felt at that stage I had little other choice. Nobody in the port was taking any notice of us, yet they must have know we were aground, I had no response from the port at all on VHF and I need to get us off and get SWMBO to hospital. So I called PAN-PAN. Olympia Radio were on immediately, though they seemed more interested in collecting information, but that's just how it felt at the time I think. They did get a fishing boat out to help pull us off the sandbank (once I'd convinced him to pull my bows into the wind I was pretty much able to motor off).
The tow cost us €200 and the "survey" cost us €200 but the boat is undamaged (I went underneath to check the keel joint the next day) and SWMBOs wrist was seen by doctors at the nearby hospital. It wasn't broken, just bruised, and it's now fine. Although I'd rather not have paid €400 that's cheaper than the alternatives. In the same situation I'd do the same thing again.
BTW. The red buoy marks the safe channel into Killini, but it's only obvious if you approach from the north. Approaching from the east as we did and the buoy makes no sense. I told the PP that they should moor four or five small red buoys to mark the edge of the sandbank, if I'd seen those the meaning of the big red buoy would have become apparent. And we're not the only people to run aground on that sandbank, I've heard from six other people who have done the same thing. They all ran aground in calm weather and were able to motor off though.
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charles_reed
Active member
You, as skipper, have to make the decision. Just be aware, in Greece, it will cost you €500 - €1000. You were lucky your incident cost you so little.
It will also cost you also in France if you put out a call and the lifeboat comes out and where there is no risk of danger to life or vessel.
I've been into Killini on several occasions - only once into the inner harbour and always anchor outside.
IF you'd be going more cautiously into a strange harbour, perhaps you'd never have stuck fast; if you'd known enough to diagnose SWMBO's wrist correctly, you'd have not have felt under quite such pressure.
I'd agree, cost should not be a reason for NOT making an emergency call BUT ignorance is expensive.
PS The one time I put out a Pan-Pan to Corsen CROSS it took them 23' to get round to answering me - by which time I'd made my own arrangements, albeit with very brown trousers.
When the Guardia Costiera came out of Brindisi, to me, I pointed out it was not me that had called them but the daft Pilots and there had never been an emergency. They charge you as well in Italian Waters.
It will also cost you also in France if you put out a call and the lifeboat comes out and where there is no risk of danger to life or vessel.
I've been into Killini on several occasions - only once into the inner harbour and always anchor outside.
IF you'd be going more cautiously into a strange harbour, perhaps you'd never have stuck fast; if you'd known enough to diagnose SWMBO's wrist correctly, you'd have not have felt under quite such pressure.
I'd agree, cost should not be a reason for NOT making an emergency call BUT ignorance is expensive.
PS The one time I put out a Pan-Pan to Corsen CROSS it took them 23' to get round to answering me - by which time I'd made my own arrangements, albeit with very brown trousers.
When the Guardia Costiera came out of Brindisi, to me, I pointed out it was not me that had called them but the daft Pilots and there had never been an emergency. They charge you as well in Italian Waters.
Tranona
Well-known member
There is, however a fundamental difference in charging in France and Greece. In France not only is the charge directly related to the service provided, but it goes to the service - ie funding for the lifeboats.
In Greece it is payment to an essentially unconnected third party who does not provide any service of value other than a signature.
In Greece it is payment to an essentially unconnected third party who does not provide any service of value other than a signature.
Tony Cross
Well-known member
Because I didn't know the port I was making barely 3 knots over the ground, I dared not go any slower because of the effect the wind and the sea were having on the boat.
SWMBO herself believed her wrist was broken, it was very badly swollen and extremely tender to the touch. At the hospital the doctor who saw her was not able to tell by examination whether the wrist was broken or just bruised. It took an x-ray to show that it was not broken.
I really fail to see what I could have done differently in those circumstances.
charles_reed
Active member
And in UK you pay nothing because it's a charity and the crews (except engineers) are all volunteers. Where the money goes is irrelevant when you're reaching into your wallet to pay it out.
Cardo
Active member
Personally, I would've taken more notice of the red buoy to the right of the boat. But hindsight is a wonderful thing.
sailaboutvic
Well-known member
Tony what would we have done in your situation ? Who know , it ok for people to sit back in their armchairs , when they are not in that position at that time and make a comment how they would had done it in a different way , but one thing for sure , you are the skipper of your boat and decision and the hammer falls your head , deciding to make a pan pan at the end of the day worked out all ok for you and your wife even if it did cost you 400 euros , the same apply to the OP friend , personally I think a law that says a boat has to be checked over by an Naval Architect when it just run out of fuel is a rip off especially when the engine has been checked by an engineer , to insisted it be rechecked by Naval Architect when the fact is that the engineer prob know more about engine then the surveyor as Richard put it , a legal scam ,money for the boys .
In a case of a grounding , I can understand that it need to be check by a Naval Architect that a very different story . Maybe the Greeks can take it to a new level and every time an engine is services that a Naval Architect need to sign off the work . as I said in my first posting never never never call for help and as Jim added and which I should had done , unless if life threading , in your case it could had been ,
Going back to where this started , running out of fuel around Greece when you can get fuel almost every where is another story , having a fuel problem one thing but running out of it ? .
That's just plain stupid , most boat would have enough fuel to go a few days at less and in that parts of the Peloponnese there load of place you can fuel up , even if you don't know the area , so unless the fuel gauge was reading wrong I can see what other reason he had for not filling up . Sorry Ravi but Maybe your friend will learn a lesson that might safe his and his crew life another time .
We always try and keep our tank one quarter full if nothing else it stop any **** going up the fuel pipe we always keep extra fuel in cans mostly to pass on to stupid people . Which won't be the first time .
One last thing to add coming on the forum telling your story is a sure way to get crucify , I learn that not long ago .
In a case of a grounding , I can understand that it need to be check by a Naval Architect that a very different story . Maybe the Greeks can take it to a new level and every time an engine is services that a Naval Architect need to sign off the work . as I said in my first posting never never never call for help and as Jim added and which I should had done , unless if life threading , in your case it could had been ,
Going back to where this started , running out of fuel around Greece when you can get fuel almost every where is another story , having a fuel problem one thing but running out of it ? .
That's just plain stupid , most boat would have enough fuel to go a few days at less and in that parts of the Peloponnese there load of place you can fuel up , even if you don't know the area , so unless the fuel gauge was reading wrong I can see what other reason he had for not filling up . Sorry Ravi but Maybe your friend will learn a lesson that might safe his and his crew life another time .
We always try and keep our tank one quarter full if nothing else it stop any **** going up the fuel pipe we always keep extra fuel in cans mostly to pass on to stupid people . Which won't be the first time .
One last thing to add coming on the forum telling your story is a sure way to get crucify , I learn that not long ago .
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Tony Cross
Well-known member
Indeed. When you view it from the north it's meaning is obvious, and you're right that I should have paid it more attention, but from the angle I was approaching it was just a buoy in the middle of nowhere. In fact it really did look to be in the ferry area from my perspective. Ah well, lesson learned.
Hardmy
Member
Killini approach
I think it is brave enough to confess it's own mishaps. For that alone, hats off. And I don't dare to claim I would have handled the issue better than you, in fact once stuck and with your injured wife there were probably no alternatives?
This is a screenshot of the Navionics chart. Are they à jour or did your grounding happen in the area where 3m.+ are shown? Is the red buoy correctly placed?
Thanks.
I think it is brave enough to confess it's own mishaps. For that alone, hats off. And I don't dare to claim I would have handled the issue better than you, in fact once stuck and with your injured wife there were probably no alternatives?
This is a screenshot of the Navionics chart. Are they à jour or did your grounding happen in the area where 3m.+ are shown? Is the red buoy correctly placed?
Thanks.
