Greece Port Police Incident - Bureaucracy or Corruption

[steveallan]

[QUOTE I really fail to see what I could have done differently in those circumstances.[/QUOTE]
I believe your actions after the grounding were correct. I have just read my notes from when we visited Killini about 4 years ago when the advise was to pass very close to the end of the extended fishing harbor mole. This is not intended to be a critical but to help other sailors.

 

[charles_reed]

I think it is brave enough to confess it's own mishaps. For that alone, hats off. And I don't dare to claim I would have handled the issue better than you, in fact once stuck and with your injured wife there were probably no alternatives?

This is a screenshot of the Navionics chart. Are they à jour or did your grounding happen in the area where 3m.+ are shown? Is the red buoy correctly placed?

Thanks.

From memory, that Navionics chart is quite considerably out-of-date, the area to the SW of the line between the red/green buoys as shown on the chart was extensively dredged 2010-11 and where the 4m area is marked is about 2m deeper. The outer mole was extended by about 50m, with a slight dog-leg, past the chapel on the end of the original.
Also from memory the entrance red buoy, to the inner harbour is much farther N. October 2010 was the last time I went into the inner harbour, leaving it in disgust and anchoring amongst the dredger barges. Subsequently I anchored, on 5 occasions, the last being May 2013, with the breakwater-end bearing c075M and c 250m, in 6m of water.

 

[Tony Cross]

I think it is brave enough to confess it's own mishaps. For that alone, hats off. And I don't dare to claim I would have handled the issue better than you, in fact once stuck and with your injured wife there were probably no alternatives?

This is a screenshot of the Navionics chart. Are they à jour or did your grounding happen in the area where 3m.+ are shown? Is the red buoy correctly placed?

Thanks.

Sadly your Navionics chart is out of date, the entire harbour has been altered since this chart.

The attached Google Earth image shows (very approximately) our track, the red buoy and where we ran aground.

View attachment 46738

 

[Hardmy]

Killini from the air

Many thanks for your explanations/infos.

I think the buoy is to be seen on this aerial view

 

[Tony Cross]

Many thanks for your explanations/infos.

I think the buoy is to be seen on this aerial view

Yes, that's it. Pass between the buoy and the stb hand light tower, there is at least 3m there and almost everywhere inside. From the buoy to the shore it's shallow (less than 2m).

 

[Chris_Robb]

The Greek Port Police/ Coastguard have some/a lot of your old UK lifeboats but they are not there for philanthropic reasons, I think!

They are not ex RNLI boats, but they are Halmatic hulls as used by the RNLI - and completed in Greece.

 

[Ravi]

personally I think a law that says a boat has to be checked over by an Naval Architect when it just run out of fuel is a rip off especially when the engine has been checked by an engineer , to insisted it be rechecked by Naval Architect

sailaboutvic - it is worse than that. The Naval architect did not want 500 euros to "check over the boat". He wanted 500 euros to put his signature on the engineers report - WITHOUT VISITING THE BOAT! If he had done a full (unwanted) survey of the boat for 500 euros, that would be a bit of a scam bit no, he wanted 500 euros for signing a bit of paper! The port police have no requirement for a Naval architect to, actually, CHECK the boat. All they want is a piece of paper signed by a naval architect.
So, 500 Euros for a signature! You could but Lionel Messi's autograph for less!
I thought that you had to go to Africa for that level of corruption.
Or, maybe in Greece, the Naval Architects have very long signatures and use very expensive ink!!!!!!

Going back to where this started , running out of fuel around Greece when you can get fuel almost every where is another story , having a fuel problem one thing but running out of it ? .
That's just plain stupid ,

I agree completely. And I am sure my young friend does as well. When on a boat without a fuel gauge, I am sure that he will start to log engine hours and make sure he doesn't do it again.
The stupid mistake of the skipper is not in question here. The discussion was over the charge for a signature and whether it was standard procedure and legally necessary and, also, whether it was justifiable.

The more experienced Greek hands on the forum have given lots of similar incidents to show that the requirement for a technical check, signed off by a naval architect, after any incident, is standard procedure and that calling a Pan Pan in Greece is inadvisable as it will incur a mandatory surveyor's charge which amounts to a fine. Furthermore, taking a tow from ANY VESSEL into a harbour may result in your vessel being impounded until you pay a similar charge / fine. This charge / fine starts off at 4-5 hundred euros, irrespective of the amount of actual work required.

The general consensus seems to be that the charge is unreasonable but that this is a symptom of the Greek economic / Legislative model of having "protected" trades which operate as a closed shop. As the thread title says ... "Bureaucracy or Corruption?" - make your own mind up.

Hopefully, that sums up the thread and, now that the incident is resolved, puts things to bed,

Personally, thanks to the advice of more experienced Greek cruisers on the forum, I have come out a bit more informed and, hopefully, a bit wiser.

Lessons learned for Greek sailing .....
1. Don't call Pan Pan. Wait until you are in real distress and, only call a Mayday when you are really sure that there is danger to life and vessel.
2. If you need a tow from the PP on a lee shore, try to convince them that you need a tow to your Mother ship, just over the horizon, offshore. As soon as you are safe into deep water and away from land, cut the ropes and sail like hell for a country that understands the Rules of the Road.
3.Lobby your Euro MEP to stop this protectionist racket and make the UK surveyors certification equivalent to the "Naval Architect" qualification in Greece. I am sure that UK surveyors would charge a lot less than 500 euros to have a local engineer smoke a cigarette while he watches your engine run for 5 minutes and phone him to say that the engine is OK!

 

[Tranona]

3.Lobby your Euro MEP to stop this protectionist racket and make the UK surveyors certification equivalent to the "Naval Architect" qualification in Greece. I am sure that UK surveyors would charge a lot less than 500 euros to have a local engineer smoke a cigarette while he watches your engine run for 5 minutes and phone him to say that the engine is OK!

This highlights one of the major problems across the EU. In Greece, as in some other states a "professional" has reserved rights so as in this case only government approved persons can perform the service. In the UK there are no compulsory requirements to act as a surveyor, although there are of course recognised qualifications awarded by professional bodies, but there is no compulsion to use them. There is therefore not a free market across Europe.

I still smart from the 800 Euros charge from the lawyer to deregister my boat from the Greek register which just involves filling in a form and sending the Bill of Sale for the inevitable stamps. The bill of Sale also needs stamping by the Port Police to make it legal - but they charge only 4 Euros for the stamps!

 

[sailaboutvic]

I still smart from the 800 Euros charge from the lawyer to deregister my boat from the Greek register which just involves filling in a form and sending the Bill of Sale for the inevitable stamps. The bill of Sale also needs stamping by the Port Police to make it legal - but they charge only 4 Euros for the stamps!

Tranona

Just interested , I take it you took the boat back to the UK , why not just leave it on the Greek register and just register it SSR or would there have been a problem ?

 

[BurnitBlue]

Personally, I would've taken more notice of the red buoy to the right of the boat. But hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Exactly. Under IALB rules for Europe a RED buoy must ALWAYS be taken on the PORT side when ENTERING harbour. This is from ANY direction North South East or West. Normally the geometry of the breakwater and shore preclude at least two directions to enter anyway.

Example entering Levkas from the NORTH the red buoys are taken to port. When entering Levkas from the South the red buoys in the canal are also taken on the port.

The rule to remember (in Europe) is RPR Red Port Returning. In USA and Caribbean who use a different IALB (B I think) system where the rule is RRR Red Right Returning.

No exceptions. However there is sometimes confusion for instance Preveza with expanded harbour and the old Navel base abandoned the red buoys continue past the harbour so different rules must apply to the entrance of the whole inland "lake" in thjis case.

You were lucky the Harbour Master did not insist on a retake of your YM or ICC when you discussed the Red Buoy with him.

 

[Tony Cross]

Since you have clearly sailed in Greece you should be aware that you will come across red buoys all over the place. Some are indeed lateral channel marks whilst others are private buoys, mooring buoys or even fishing pot markers. I have acknowledged my error in not realising what that red buoy was there for. I was using the two obvious lateral marks on the two towers at the entrance to the fishing port.

As it happens the PP were rather shame-faced themselves because they should have been listening to Ch12 and at the time they were not (though they were the next day of course).

Thank you for you comments, even though they are neither friendly, accurate, nor helpful.

 

[Carmel2]

You were lucky the Harbour Master did not insist on a retake of your YM or ICC when you discussed the Red Buoy with him.

Bit harsh, don't you think? I think Tony sounds quite calm given the circumstances.

 

[BurnitBlue]

Since you have clearly sailed in Greece you should be aware that you will come across red buoys all over the place. Some are indeed lateral channel marks whilst others are private buoys, mooring buoys or even fishing pot markers. I have acknowledged my error in not realising what that red buoy was there for. I was using the two obvious lateral marks on the two towers at the entrance to the fishing port.

As it happens the PP were rather shame-faced themselves because they should have been listening to Ch12 and at the time they were not (though they were the next day of course).

Thank you for you comments, even though they are neither friendly, accurate, nor helpful.

Sorry, I was not intending to be unfriendly. I actually was a bit aggravated by trying to type on this super wide page where I had to scroll around to read what I wrote. Not an excuse for being "strident" though so I apologise no offence meant. Now let me see if I can find the Post button.

 

[Tony Cross]

Sorry, I was not intending to be unfriendly. I actually was a bit aggravated by trying to type on this super wide page where I had to scroll around to read what I wrote. Not an excuse for being "strident" though so I apologise no offence meant. Now let me see if I can find the Post button.

 

[Tranona]

Tranona

Just interested , I take it you took the boat back to the UK , why not just leave it on the Greek register and just register it SSR or would there have been a problem ?

You can't do that as a non Greek cannot have a boat on the Greek register, in their system registration is title so I would not own the boat, and it is illegal to have a boat on two registers at the same time. (You have to declare that it is not on another register when you apply for an SSR). Kept the boat in Greece for a further 3 years on the SSR before sailing it to UK.

Neither I as the purchaser, nor the previous title holder is allowed to deal direct with the registry, only an approved lawyer can - hence the 800 Euros for doing something that in the UK would be free or a broker would do for you as part of his services.

 

[Davy_S]

You can't do that as a non Greek cannot have a boat on the Greek register

I don't quite understand that statement, maybe small craft are different, is there a specific length that you refer to?

 

[sailaboutvic]

You can't do that as a non Greek cannot have a boat on the Greek register, in their system registration is title so I would not own the boat, and it is illegal to have a boat on two registers at the same time. (You have to declare that it is not on another register when you apply for an SSR). Kept the boat in Greece for a further 3 years on the SSR before sailing it to UK.

Neither I as the purchaser, nor the previous title holder is allowed to deal direct with the registry, only an approved lawyer can - hence the 800 Euros for doing something that in the UK would be free or a broker would do for you as part of his services.

Thanks for the info , I only ask because twice I have bought boats from other country in the past and I always just reg them on SSR . I can't ever remember being asked if they were reg else where , mind you this is going aback some years now .

 

[RupertW]

Thanks for the info , I only ask because twice I have bought boats from other country in the past and I always just reg them on SSR . I can't ever remember being asked if they were reg else where , mind you this is going aback some years now .

I can't remember that question either. To save time we registered our current boat (Croatian flagged at the time) on SSR well before we had even bought it so that we could sail off once the paperwork was complete. Similarly we retained the SSR throughout the Croatian VAT registration and payment process last year. SSR is UKs easy way of not actually having a compulsory registration system at all.

 

[Sybarite]

The bad thing is that the bill lands on my young friend who is not well off.
He is a great sailor and seaman but not hugely experienced and, with his very limited budget, this expensive lesson will be more painful for him than most.
I doubt he will ever run out of fuel, again, though.

It is very bad for a diesel engine to run out of fuel because the pump (where engineering tolerances can be 1/10th of a micron) is lubricated by the oil passing through.

 

[Sybarite]

Oh! My English is not too good but I thought that "Pan Pan" said "Panic, panic". I think it is just a coincidence that it is near to in writing of the French "Paen" but not in meaning. .

It's based on the French "panne" which means breakdown or out of order.