Greece Port Police Incident - Bureaucracy or Corruption

[Artic Warrior]

Wow we were lucky then,
as twice had major issues sailing around the greek islands this summer.
Water pump impellor failed badly and replaced new while trying to sail in light winds.
Then the next day air in the fuel and the engine kept stopping but sorted now,

One reason while I keep well away from a lee shore,,,,,so many skim the edges of islands.

Im so glad I can fix it and didn't call the CG or PP....FEW !!!

 

[charles_reed]

<< Exactly. Under IALB rules for Europe a RED buoy must ALWAYS be taken on the PORT side when ENTERING harbour. This is from ANY direction North South East or West. Normally the geometry of the breakwater and shore preclude at least two directions to enter anyway.

Example entering Levkas from the NORTH the red buoys are taken to port. When entering Levkas from the South the red buoys in the canal are also taken on the port.

The rule to remember (in Europe) is RPR Red Port Returning. In USA and Caribbean who use a different IALB (B I think) system where the rule is RRR Red Right Returning.

No exceptions. However there is sometimes confusion for instance Preveza with expanded harbour and the old Navel base abandoned the red buoys continue past the harbour so different rules must apply to the entrance of the whole inland "lake" in thjis case.

You were lucky the Harbour Master did not insist on a retake of your YM or ICC when you discussed the Red Buoy with him. >>

Having been there and gone in and out of Killini on about 8 occasions - I'd certainly not adopt your high and mighty tone.

It was dusk, there was a thunderstorm approaching and Tony was approaching from the E to leave the buoy to port. Unknown to him there was a bank, marked as 0.4m, between him and slightly to the NE of the buoy.
The bank is not even soft mud - it's sand and shingle (brought down on the winterbourne which you can see to the L of the buoy on the photo).
Bad luck, aggravated by being in a strange harbour with a possible rotating local storm coming through and a degree of caution.
Perhaps those of us who've experienced more would not adopt such a bureaucrats' tone.

PS A navel (or omphalos) is something you have above your crotch and below your chest.

 

[Ken_Irby]

It's based on the French "panne" which means breakdown or out of order.

It is only a co-incidence, I think.

 

[Melody]

It is only a co-incidence, I think.

Not a coincidence. The first language of the radio was French. That's why we have Mayday (from m'aidez), and Seelonce, Seelonce Finee etc. as well as Pan.

By the way, it's perfectly legal for a non-Greek to register a boat on the Hellenic Registry. Lots of foreigners here do it, although it's a typically long Greek bureaucratic process. You have to meet the same residence requirements as for any other EU country but there's no requirement to be Greek. I think that would be against EU law.

 

[macd]

It is very bad for a diesel engine to run out of fuel because the pump (where engineering tolerances can be 1/10th of a micron) is lubricated by the oil passing through.

One ten thousandth of a mm, one 400th of a thou - you must be kidding.

 

[macd]

<< Exactly. Under IALB rules for Europe...

Or not quite exactly. The body is the IALA (International Association of Lighthouse Authorities) which recognises region 'A' and region 'B'. Greece is under IALA 'A'. I suspect you knew all that. I have similar moments.

 

[Sybarite]

One ten thousandth of a mm, one 400th of a thou - you must be kidding.

Well that what the Technical Director of the factory where they were made told me. I was only the financial controller. Some parts are machined in pairs and they are not interchangeable because of such precision.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Bad luck, aggravated by being in a strange harbour with a possible rotating local storm coming through and a degree of caution.
Perhaps those of us who've experienced more would not adopt such a bureaucrats' tone.

.

Well said Charles

 

[charles_reed]

Or not quite exactly. The body is the IALA (International Association of Lighthouse Authorities) which recognises region 'A' and region 'B'. Greece is under IALA 'A'. I suspect you knew all that. I have similar moments.

Not mine - you looked at someone else's contribution that I quoted.

(Thinx -"perhaps I'm not the only hard-of-sight on the forum" Thinx 2 "but I've an excuse, only one eye working due to a stroke") ;-)

 

[Steve Clayton]

Oversize pictures causing screen overflow to the right?
Answer: switch to mobile view; then when finished revert to "Full Site"

 

[macd]

Not mine - you looked at someone else's contribution that I quoted.

(Thinx -"perhaps I'm not the only hard-of-sight on the forum" Thinx 2 "but I've an excuse, only one eye working due to a stroke") ;-)

Apologies...small screen, hard to see exactly to whom I was responding.

 

[Jegs]

Oversize pictures causing screen overflow to the right?
Answer: switch to mobile view; then when finished revert to "Full Site"

I had the same problem: is it possible to do what you suggest on a laptop?

Thanks,

John G

 

[Ken_Irby]

Not a coincidence. The first language of the radio was French. That's why we have Mayday (from m'aidez), and Seelonce, Seelonce Finee etc. as well as Pan.

By the way, it's perfectly legal for a non-Greek to register a boat on the Hellenic Registry. Lots of foreigners here do it, although it's a typically long Greek bureaucratic process. You have to meet the same residence requirements as for any other EU country but there's no requirement to be Greek. I think that would be against EU law.

I did not mention registration, did I? But as you want to talk about this, how is it that I can see so many big yachts which I know are owned by Greeks from my balcony here which all have UK flags? There are even more in the port of Vouliagmeni near Athens.

 

[Steve Clayton]

I had the same problem: is it possible to do what you suggest on a laptop?

Thanks,

John G

Yup;
see the white box below on the left; click it and select "default mobile style"

 

[charles_reed]

I did not mention registration, did I? But as you want to talk about this, how is it that I can see so many big yachts which I know are owned by Greeks from my balcony here which all have UK flags? There are even more in the port of Vouliagmeni near Athens.

Of course there are - just as most big powerboats on French Med coasts have a red ensign and no English-speakers aboard. The Red Ensign is a flag of convenience for all those oligarchs who want to evade their country's attempt to tax and to control them.

 

[jimbaerselman]

I did not mention registration, did I? But as you want to talk about this, how is it that I can see so many big yachts which I know are owned by Greeks from my balcony here which all have UK flags? There are even more in the port of Vouliagmeni near Athens.

Off the cuff, my understanding is:

British Part 1 registration is available to EU residents and legal entities (plus a few others) which have UK based representatives , subject to initial inspections which confirms the boat is what it says it is, and that title rests with the registrant. Under 24m, no UK regulations are enforced about crews or equipment. It proves title and records liens - as long as both parties tell the register . . . £125, plus costs of initial proofs

British Part 111 registration is available to EU residents (plus some others) who declare they are UK residents for 185 days or more a year (not necessarily UK nationality) and the boat is below 24m LOA. At £25, with no inspections or regulations about crews etc, it's a snip. It proves nothing except that the boat was once on a UK list

Real detail at http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/registering-your-pleasure-craft

I suspect one or two applicants for part 111 three lost their diaries . . .

And I wonder how those who toddle around the world on part 111 would prove their UK residence? Hmmm. Porky pies tonight . . .

 

[Tony Cross]

Of course there are - just as most big powerboats on French Med coasts have a red ensign and no English-speakers aboard. The Red Ensign is a flag of convenience for all those oligarchs who want to evade their country's attempt to tax and to control them.

Which is why the Greeks introduced the "new" boat tax (TPP). Or should I not have mentioned that?

 

[sailaboutvic]

Which is why the Greeks introduced the "new" boat tax (TPP). Or should I not have mentioned that?

What Tax ???? That's new to me

Are you trying to wake up an old ghost ?

 

[BurnitBlue]

<< Exactly. Under IALB rules for Europe a RED buoy must ALWAYS be taken on the PORT side when ENTERING harbour. This is from ANY direction North South East or West. Normally the geometry of the breakwater and shore preclude at least two directions to enter anyway.

Example entering Levkas from the NORTH the red buoys are taken to port. When entering Levkas from the South the red buoys in the canal are also taken on the port.

The rule to remember (in Europe) is RPR Red Port Returning. In USA and Caribbean who use a different IALB (B I think) system where the rule is RRR Red Right Returning.

No exceptions. However there is sometimes confusion for instance Preveza with expanded harbour and the old Navel base abandoned the red buoys continue past the harbour so different rules must apply to the entrance of the whole inland "lake" in thjis case.

You were lucky the Harbour Master did not insist on a retake of your YM or ICC when you discussed the Red Buoy with him. >>

Having been there and gone in and out of Killini on about 8 occasions - I'd certainly not adopt your high and mighty tone.

It was dusk, there was a thunderstorm approaching and Tony was approaching from the E to leave the buoy to port. Unknown to him there was a bank, marked as 0.4m, between him and slightly to the NE of the buoy.
The bank is not even soft mud - it's sand and shingle (brought down on the winterbourne which you can see to the L of the buoy on the photo).
Bad luck, aggravated by being in a strange harbour with a possible rotating local storm coming through and a degree of caution.
Perhaps those of us who've experienced more would not adopt such a bureaucrats' tone.

PS A navel (or omphalos) is something you have above your crotch and below your chest.

This whole thread is about Bureaucracy. However my post was about Seamanship. Tony Cross ignored a large Red Buoy on his right. Made a big mistake (he admits to) by taking it on his starboard side while on the approach to a harbour. IALA rules are pretty rigid about this. It does not require a line of red buoys to make one noticeable. The Harbour master or PP placed that buoy in the correct spot as evidenced by Tony Cross when he ran aground on the wrong side of it.

Because of this mistake a member of his crew was injured enough to require Hospital attention.

I stand by my statement that he was lucky the PP or Harbour Master (if there is one) did not take this mistake in seamanship further. According to JimB above, It is a criminal offence not to report or perhaps cause an injury during such an incident.

Tony Cross asked what he could have done different. Well, after he took the approach buoy on the wrong side he lost all options and threw himself on events as they panned out. The Pan Pan was justified when he was aground. A good call. However, the Pan Pan was probably recorded as was the subsequent hospital visit. There is a paper trail if the reviewing “whatever” decided to follow up.

On approach what would I have done? It is not a question of perfection, we all make mistakes (to avoid the accusation) but a matter of self-preservation. In this instance, I would have immediately turned 180 on seeing the Red Buoy on my Starboard and curve round to port to take the buoy on the correct side. An approaching thunderstorm is no excuse to do otherwise. I make no apology for this post. Fill your boots, there are probably many spelling mistakes above, take a look at the commas and full stops while you get your rocks off.

I'm out of this thread.

 

[Tony Cross]

This whole thread is about Bureaucracy. However my post was about Seamanship. Tony Cross ignored a large Red Buoy on his right. Made a big mistake (he admits to) by taking it on his starboard side while on the approach to a harbour. IALA rules are pretty rigid about this. It does not require a line of red buoys to make one noticeable. The Harbour master or PP placed that buoy in the correct spot as evidenced by Tony Cross when he ran aground on the wrong side of it.

Because of this mistake a member of his crew was injured enough to require Hospital attention.

I stand by my statement that he was lucky the PP or Harbour Master (if there is one) did not take this mistake in seamanship further. According to JimB above, It is a criminal offence not to report or perhaps cause an injury during such an incident.

Tony Cross asked what he could have done different. Well, after he took the approach buoy on the wrong side he lost all options and threw himself on events as they panned out. The Pan Pan was justified when he was aground. A good call. However, the Pan Pan was probably recorded as was the subsequent hospital visit. There is a paper trail if the reviewing “whatever” decided to follow up.

On approach what would I have done? It is not a question of perfection, we all make mistakes (to avoid the accusation) but a matter of self-preservation. In this instance, I would have immediately turned 180 on seeing the Red Buoy on my Starboard and curve round to port to take the buoy on the correct side. An approaching thunderstorm is no excuse to do otherwise. I make no apology for this post. Fill your boots, there are probably many spelling mistakes above, take a look at the commas and full stops while you get your rocks off.

I'm out of this thread.

I have accepted that at the time I did not properly understand what the (apparently) lone buoy was for, my mistake. However, you were not there at that time and in those conditions. I wonder whether you have ever been there? I am not alone is misunderstanding that buoy, since our incident I have been contacted by a number of people who have run aground at the same spot doing exactly what I was doing (ie. entering the fishing port from the east).

You are of course entitled to your opinion, even if it is with the benefit of 20:20 hindsight and from the comfort of your home/office. In any case, as my father used to say, the man who never made a mistake never made anything.