Gonna need a bigger boat ...

[aevans692]

Hi all

Im new to the forum so I hope I have posted this in the right place .. .

So.. at the end of Feb my wife and I bought a small yacht , its a sadler 25 , It was our first boat , and our first time sailing , It had been a long time coming as my wife wasn't too keen on the idea at first .. Now we are hooked , we are out sailing as much as possible (every week) building up to longer and longer passages and really getting to grips with the boat, we are away for 20 days in July ..

Since we bought the boat we have learnt so much and our plans have grown , we really want to just pack up and sail off .. if only ha ...

Now it brings me to my questions, we have decided that in the coming future we would like something bigger, I have more of an idea of what we would like and the type of sailing we would like to be doing ..

I would like : more room , To be able to stand up in the heads , a wheel , radar and ais , a nice size double birth, a oven , A shower , better deck gear winches and so on .. you get the idea , we have two small boys and would be nice to accommodate as they grow ... If we are going to buy/upgrade we only really want to do this once as boats are expensive, I have been thinking about taking a year out from work and sailing down to the med , or maybe a little further( dreams ...

I Have been looking at hull shapes , and it seems that most modern yachts 2005+ seem to have a wide stern and some have a flatter bottom profile , where as older boats like our little saddler has a much narrower stern and a more rounded V type hull .. Im told that the the more modern flatter hull with a wider stern doesn't fair well when things get a little rough , but makes for a faster boat in lighter weather and downwind .. Is this really the case ? as most manufactures seem to be building yachts in this shape, my concern is that if we buy something of a more modern shape, will if fair up well if I sail down to the med ?

I like the look of some Beneteau's , Bavaria's and some moodys , we are thinking around 33ft - 40ft .. But a few people have told me tho that Beneteau's and Bavaria's are a bit flimsy, poorly made and not so sea going friendly, tho there seems to be lot of them about, and I have watched a lot of videos of them holding their own in a blow , I did see that a keel fell off a Beneteau and the crew was never found obviously this doesn't fill me with much confidence ...

I'd like to find out whats peoples thoughts and feelings are about what I have mentioned before we start looking ...

Cheers all

 

[LadyInBed]

I think what you have been told and have assumed is about right, but a larger modern boat will still handle any conditions that you are likely to take your family out in.
Don't get too hung up on the electronics a boat hasn't got as that can be retrofitted or replaced, look for the things that can't be changed.

 

[KenMcCulloch]

All great aspirations. Don’t get fixated on, for example, wheel steering. There are pros and cons to both wheels and tillers. Lots to go wrong with a wheel for a start. Good luck, don’t rush.

 

[solent clown]

Welcome. We are on a similar learning curve to you, fantastic isn't it! Don't rush the next boat, have a good look around, a good ask around, and wait for the right one at the right price. That has been the decision we came to in the last few months, meanwhile getting as much experience on the water as we can in our 24ft yacht. Our mantra is sail sail, sail, learn, learn, learn at the mo. Bigger boat will be great, but it will come when it comes.

 

[solent clown]

And make use of this forum, we have learned a vast amount from it. Frankly I don't know how we could have come so far in such a short time without it, and the knowledge and experience of it's participants

 

[lpdsn]

There are all sorts of factors at play in boat design. For example your Sadler has a narrow pinched stern, a small mainsail and large headsail because that's what the racing rule that was current at the time, IOR, favoured and racing fashion spilled over to cruising boat design.

Bavarias and Beneteaus aren't junk. They are engineered down to a price but they have survived as major boat builders because they churn out boats that sell and work ok. The wider sterns do provide better accommodation and do tend to mean excessive weather helm when heeled, but that is manageable in normal circumstances. Modern racers have wide sterns too but obviously what you can do with a full crew actively trimming the sails is different from a family cruising boat, which is why it is quite typical for cruising Beneteaus to have less sail area than the racing versions built on the same hull form. Bavaria only briefly tried a racing range so all their boats are cruisers - and anyway their cruiser racer had a relatively narrow stern.

There's a lot of support on this forum for old Westerlys and Moodys (probably says something about the age group of forumites) but personally I don't think there's anything special about them. They were at one time the two biggest selling UK brands, so patriotism is probably a big factor in the support of them

Then of course there are alsorts of other designs. Have a look at what's around. Trial sails aren't the norm, but with many of the main contenental builders there are examples available for charter, so if you really like a design you could charter one in the Solent or Greece to see what you think.

And don't get too hung up on certain features. Wheel/tiller for example. As another example, I still find it hard to believe I bought a boat without a traveller in the cockpit but I did and I'm happy with the way she sails.

 

[aevans692]

Yeah we are not to stuck on any of the above apart from a stand up heads .. its hard work on the sadler .. lol.. the wife does want a shower, double birth and a oven..

How seaworthy is seaworthy ? how flimsy is flimsy ...? our little sadler has been great up till now , got caught in 35 knot winds , and with the sail reefed not really any dramas , was good fun and good experience ...

do all flatter bottom boats go home when it gets windy

 

[jwilson]

I have owned a heavy deep and long-keeled ultra-traditional boat, and now have a modern fin and spade rudder cruiser. The modern boats will as others have said will cope with any conditions you will want to sail in with family: you're not crossing the North Atlantic in winter or heading for the Southern Ocean, and even if you occasionally do longer passages - eg across Biscay - you're going to have good mid-range forecasts to avoid truly bad weather.

Sailing modern boats is different, and much of the time better. You reef early, sail them nearer flat, but in lighter winds they are fast, and when moored infinitely more spacious and comfortable. The only downside with many of the newest ones is that the interior joinery is going almost IKEA level downmarket to keep prices down. The structures, though built of thinner GRP in places, are pretty well engineered to have strength and stiffness where needed.

Re your Sadler in 35 knots: brought our 35 ft Jeanneau from Weymouth to Falmouth two-up with 35 knots on the nose most of the way. Boat coped fine, though I got pretty fed up with the slamming.

 

[lpdsn]

do all flatter bottom boats go home when it gets windy

Depends upon the flat bottomed boat and the crew.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTHdY-rYuQY

It's very hard to generalise.

 

[Wansworth]

A tiller steeredboat means you can fit a wind vane which will be a boon if you have small kids.....you don’t have to be a ocean crosser either!

 

[Quandary]

The second boat you buy will be a reaction to the perceived deficiencies in the first one, the third one will be almost right for the circumnavigation

 

[RupertW]

The second boat you buy will be a reaction to the perceived deficiencies in the first one, the third one will be almost right for the circumnavigation

Well I'm onto my third boat (ish as we rebought the same 24 foot model as a second boat at one point, making it four), and the first 24 footer was great for us but we found it a bit small for rougher bits of West Brittany and Biscay so bought an equally racey boat but at 31 foot with much more comfortable accommodation. It was far too jumpy (partly my sailing style at the time) so our 42 footer is a much more sedate Jeanneau that can take the bad weather and can be sailed for days on end without tiring us out.

So I agree with others - find the second boat that fixes the problems of the first but don't expect it to be your final choice.

 

[yoda]

Hi

I have a friend with one of these:

https://www.theyachtmarket.com/boats_for_sale/1605627/?searchid=15486301&page=3

As a boat for the family that also sails well it has impressed me and I am quite fussy!

Yoda

 

[Bajansailor]

A tiller steered boat means you can fit a wind vane which will be a boon if you have small kids.....you don’t have to be a ocean crosser either!

Although wind vanes can also be fitted to boats with wheels.
In fact a Hydrovane doesn't care if you have a tiller or a wheel, it is completely independent.
Monitors and Aries type vane gears operate as a servo-pendulum effect attached to either the tiller or the wheel, although it is more complicated to attach the control lines from the windvane to a drum on the wheel, especially if the boat has a centre cockpit.

Re Sadler 25s, many of these have made long offshore passages (including transatlantics) without fanfare - most well found yachts of that size should be capable of the same. However it will be (all else being equal) more comfortable / fun with a bigger boat, and usually with faster passage times.

 

[E39mad]

The Sadler 25 is a solid boat - I can understand that not going for a modern mainstream boat is for you. They are built primarily for the world's charter markets so volume and looks tend to have priority over comfort in a seaway and quality of construction.

There are so many boats that might suit you mainly from British, Dutch, or Scandinavian builders both current and no longer in build. You could look at anything from an X Yacht or MG 335/346 through to a Rustler 36 or Vancouver 34.

 

[Tranona]

Yeah we are not to stuck on any of the above apart from a stand up heads .. its hard work on the sadler .. lol.. the wife does want a shower, double birth and a oven..

How seaworthy is seaworthy ? how flimsy is flimsy ...? our little sadler has been great up till now , got caught in 35 knot winds , and with the sail reefed not really any dramas , was good fun and good experience ...

do all flatter bottom boats go home when it gets windy

No, they don't go home when it gets windy. However most owners try to avoid heavy weather, which is much easier to do these days. If you do enjoy heavy weather sailing or want to sail in some of the wilder parts of the world then some designs of boats are better than others.

The stories you hear about modern boats usually come from those who don't actually own one. You get a very different story from those who do who mostly find them highly satisfactory., This is not surprising because if they were as awful as the detractors make out, who would ever buy one? - or in many cases be serial owners. Many owners (like me) have also owned older style boats and would not go back..

As has already been suggested, good idea to charter a modern 35' or so mainstream boat, similar to the sort of thing you might aspire to. You will find it very different from your Sadler, but hopefully you will discover why they are so popular (and how well they stand up to heavy charter use).

You don't say what your budget is, but if it is modest you might consider a sort of halfway step by buying something like a Sadler 34 which gives you the size (although not as generous as newer boats) but retains some of the characteristics of your present boat.

 

[Seven Spades]

I will give you the following advice:-

1. Do not buy a shallow Keel boat

2. Make sure that the headsail of boat you buy can be sheeted in a long way.

The problem with some modern boat is that they don't sail well to windward and it is a moserable experiance if you can only sail at 50 degrees to the wind, you end up motering a lot more often than you want. The other effect of light boats is they slam, this is something that you have not had to face with your Sadler.

For 12 years we have a Starlight 39 and it was an amazing boat, it never slamed, we always felt safe and it sailed really well. The downside is that it is significently smaller inside than most moders boats. So it all depends upon your budget, you can get some great modern boats like an X or a Dehler or if your budget is smaller a Dufour 34 or Dufour 40. I woudl be very nervious of something that is huge inside. Theyare great in the med but around our shores with the huge tides we get they are not as well suited in rough weather.

 

[Skylark]

The stories you hear about modern boats usually come from those who don't actually own one. You get a very different story from those who do who mostly find them highly satisfactory.,

This is probably the best piece of advice contained within this thread.

To the OP, welcome to the forum. All I would add to the above is to ask the person offering the benefit of their extensive knowledge and experience “what boat do you sail”.

Good luck with your search.

 

[ashtead]

Best advice in previous posts is to try out some makes on charter although this will limit your choice and is dependent on time and funds. The step up in facilities from a 25 to say a 34 Bav for that 10 or so foot is amazing so you get all the extra features you mention. What you will also find is things you never thought you needed can become important as your sailing develops. All I can suggest is drawn up a list of features and add in a few more you haven't mentioned e.g. Heating , autopilot self tacking headsail , large fridge to feed the family, engine size and ability to reverse ,age and budget and see what emerges . Look also if you can at owners sites as while biased gives an insight into issues and also type of sailing undertaken by owners. Once you have digested all this you might wish to consider cabin configuration as each child will want their own in a few years no doubt so this might drive you down a double stern cabin route and rule out the centre cockpit versions. What a lot turns on though is budget and location so while a Southerly with a lifting keel might suit some price doesn't. Personally I would avoid exotic brands and find something that will be easy to sell on so maybe ask a few brokers their views. I sure if you put out a price and size into boatsearch plus distance you wish to travel choice will be fairly narrow in reality. Good luck and welcome to the forum which is not only an insight into boating but also the people who pursue this sport.

 

[Quandary]

I have been a boat owner continuously for 45 years now, in that time I have owned 7 each quite different from the other (but all biased toward performance as I enjoy racing). I do not regret any of them, each one from 24' to 38' and now back down to 31' was enjoyed.
One comment I have as someone who limits their cruising to IoM. N. Ireland and West Scotland is that unless you are really convinced that family and friends will continue to join you you do not need a 42 footer, the performance difference is not that different and when you get out past Ardnamurchan the smaller yachts are the ones you see and they are sailing, not motoring everywhere. For two people we are comfortable with a 6 berth yacht, probably 30- 33 feet and sail handling is easy, when we have four we have enough room as long as they go home after about a week.
We can always recognize charter boats passing our house here on the Canal, they are the one with as many people as berths.
Sailing itself is a really enjoyable activity but to get real pleasure you need decent sails with proper battens and controls like movable cars, travellers and winches, amazing how few yachts are really sailed rather than motored.