Gonna need a bigger boat ...

[WayneS]

My advise would be to go out sailing on as many boats as you can and make up your own minds. Other people's views are just that, other people's views. Most sellers/brokers will be happy to get you our sailing for a few hours.

Until recently we owned a 2006 Bavaria 33 which we bought for similar reasons to you, headroom, space, wheel etc. If we had listened to other people's advice we would not have bought it because it was poorly built, slammed badly, fell to pieces etc. We took our time and went sailing on Hanses, Bavarias, Najads, Dufors, Jenneaus and in the end settled on the Bav, because it ticked most of our boxes.

Go sailing in as wide a range of conditions as you can. A boat that is great in ghosting conditions is not necc the best boat for beating to windward in 30kn.

Just for the record, we went west across lyme bay, close hauled with wind reaching 40kn across the deck, and our Bav handled if fantastically.

Good luck, hope you find something.

 

[Stemar]

Lots of good advice here. Now for my 2d'th.

Don't get too big a boat. I have a friend who got himself a 39 footer, but couldn't sail it much 'cos it's too big to manage single handed (I know nutters go off solo round the world in 60 footers, but I'm talking about normal folk) He has to lock in and out of his marina, and the helm's too far from the lines - same problem berthing.

Modern fat bottomed girls have wide open spaces below - great in a marina, not so good blatting back from Cherbourg in a lumpy F7. The above-mentioned friend did permanent damage to his back when his boat fell off a wave while he was moving below and I ended up in A&E in much the same way on a different, but similar boat.

When you get your "forever" boat, and you're debating whether to get a cruising chute or not, spend the money on a good folding/feathering prop - a Brunton or similar. It'll give you extra performance in all conditions and all points of sail that will usually benefit you more than the chute on a long passage.

Light, modern boats will usually be less comfortable when it cuts up rough then a heavier boat, but you probably won't be out there so long. There aren't many boats out there that won't handle far worse conditions than you want to be out in.

Don't buy a racing boat unless you're planning on racing seriously. You can have just as much fun round the cans on a cruiser and can still do well on handicap, even if you aren't in contention for line honours

Finally, fast, comfortable, cheap - pick any two. You can't have all three.

 

[flaming]

Just to correct a couple of misconceptions in your post if I may...

Bavarias and Beneteaus aren't junk. They are engineered down to a price but they have survived as major boat builders because they churn out boats that sell and work ok. The wider sterns do provide better accommodation and do tend to mean excessive weather helm when heeled, but that is manageable in normal circumstances. Modern racers have wide sterns too but obviously what you can do with a full crew actively trimming the sails is different from a family cruising boat, which is why it is quite typical for cruising Beneteaus to have less sail area than the racing versions built on the same hull form. Bavaria only briefly tried a racing range so all their boats are cruisers - and anyway their cruiser racer had a relatively narrow stern.

Beneteau no longer make cruiser racers, and when they did they never shared a hull form with the cruisers. The most recent CR range (First 35 and 40) were considerably narrower than the Oceanis models of the same time, especially on the waterline. The beam of the cruising models has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with racing or racing fashions, and is purely to give internal volume. Jeanneau did go through a period of using the same hull for both, around the period of the Sun Fast 37. But this wasn't really a winner. The hull didn't have the volume of their cruising competitors, but was too dumpy to ever be much of a success on the race course.

Modern wide racing hulls are really quite different, being actually much narrower on the waterline than you'd think. Modern fat cruisers are just fat...

In my humble opinion most of the fat cruisers are actually pretty good boats. However... A lot of the negative comments you hear about them on this forum (and elsewhere) come from people who learned to sail in narrower boats and then jump on a new boat and goes "argh, it slams!" Well yes, it will if you sail it in the same way as your older narrow boat. But adjust your sailing style (broadly speaking you carry less sail upwind and sail a little lower) and you alleviate almost all the slamming.

 

[Tranona]

Just to correct a couple of misconceptions in your post if I may...

In my humble opinion most of the fat cruisers are actually pretty good boats. However... A lot of the negative comments you hear about them on this forum (and elsewhere) come from people who learned to sail in narrower boats and then jump on a new boat and goes "argh, it slams!" Well yes, it will if you sail it in the same way as your older narrow boat. But adjust your sailing style (broadly speaking you carry less sail upwind and sail a little lower) and you alleviate almost all the slamming.

There is quite a good article in this month's PBO comparing the Elan 340 (racy boat) with the Elan Impression 344 (cruisy boat) with the help of designer Rob Humphreys. Clearly explains the differences as you describe, both reasons and consequences.

Agree with your observations about sailing style to get the best out of the boats with the proviso that not all modern boats slam. However, not entirely sure about what design features cause the slamming, or rather what differences there are between a slammer and a non slammer.

 

[flaming]

Agree with your observations about sailing style to get the best out of the boats with the proviso that not all modern boats slam. However, not entirely sure about what design features cause the slamming, or rather what differences there are between a slammer and a non slammer.

Broadly speaking it's a flat forefoot. So the wider and shallower the boat is forward of the mast, the more it will slam if you just sheet in and try and sail close hauled in waves.

 

[KINGFISHER 9]

........ and as for keels falling off ... a keel can fall off anything that's previously clobbered a rock! Nothing to worry about but best get a survey anyway! … :encouragement:

 

[TangaraToo]

Thought I'd add my thoughts as well given that I can directly compare a smaller 70's MAB with a 2017 AWB
MAB
Achilles 9mtr which I sailed for 3 years out of West Mersea (east coast)

AWB
Jeanneau 389 (deep keel)

So very different hull shapes and keels. For completeness I should add that both had a lot of tweaking bits, cars, backstay, traveler, vang etc.
I've sailed both in 30+ kts of wind gusting close to 40 at times and I'm still here to tell about it
Yes the AWB does slam at times if I push her hard to the wind but so did the MAB. The MAB was wetter in rough conditions
Beam on they are / were both very enjoyable to sail
Wind astern the AWB is awesome, get the kettle on, fry up the bacon, sit back and let Eric the autopilot take care of things. MAB lets just say I preferred not to run downwind for any great length of time. Rock and roll
Neither boat gave me the slightest concern in stronger winds. The AWB is main driven so that needs reefing earlier, the MAB was the opposite with the genoa needing reefing sooner rather than later. All in all both sailed well just needed to be handled slightly differently.
The burning question I guess is which do I prefer? That's an easy one, AWB every time.
Let's take a typical UK east coast trip - Suffolk Yacht Harbour to Lowestoft.
Average speed in the 389 was around 9knts SOG in 20kts. The Achillies would have been doing around 6 in those conditions. about 5 miles off Lowestoft the forecast bad weather hit us. Wind up to 30+ and rain like you wouldn't believe. Now I knew this was coming before setting off. If I'd been in the Achillies I may well have stayed local. In the jeanneau just a simple reduction in sail, switch on the radar and autopilot (AIS transponder always on). Grab the auto pilot remote, swing the chart plotter mount 180 degrees and retire to shelter where I can still keep a lookout, see the radar and tweek the course with the remote.
Entering Lowestoft was fun with wind and tide across the entrance but having all that horse power from a responsive engine made it all very simple.
Once inside the harbor the heating went on as we motored up river to marina. Tied up then down below for a hot shower and a good meal. Crack open a can of beer, stick the telly on and find out what happened in the world whilst I was having fun. Perfect.
With the Achilles I would have been in the wet stuff for a lot longer and then been cold for quite some time.
I'm not saying the Jeanneau is perfection. Trying to put her in a berth with a cross wind of more than 10kts is a pain with the high freeboard and flatter hull. She blows off faster than my wife can spend money on her equine friends but you learn to deal with it.
So IMHO the modern wide ass boat is not worse to sail than the 70s and 80s boats, just a little different. The benefits in comfort are significant.
PS the keel is still on!

E.T.A.
Achilles in 20kts in calmish seas
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zn_LHz2ODa4

Jeanneau in somewhat more challenging conditions. Could have made it smoother by bearing away a bit or helming myself but was letting Eric AP work
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrLVRStTORA

 

[geem]

Thought I'd add my thoughts as well given that I can directly compare a smaller 70's MAB with a 2017 AWB
MAB
Achilles 9mtr which I sailed for 3 years out of West Mersea (east coast)

AWB
Jeanneau 389 (deep keel)

So very different hull shapes and keels. For completeness I should add that both had a lot of tweaking bits, cars, backstay, traveler, vang etc.
I've sailed both in 30+ kts of wind gusting close to 40 at times and I'm still here to tell about it
Yes the AWB does slam at times if I push her hard to the wind but so did the MAB. The MAB was wetter in rough conditions
Beam on they are / were both very enjoyable to sail
Wind astern the AWB is awesome, get the kettle on, fry up the bacon, sit back and let Eric the autopilot take care of things. MAB lets just say I preferred not to run downwind for any great length of time. Rock and roll
Neither boat gave me the slightest concern in stronger winds. The AWB is main driven so that needs reefing earlier, the MAB was the opposite with the genoa needing reefing sooner rather than later. All in all both sailed well just needed to be handled slightly differently.
The burning question I guess is which do I prefer? That's an easy one, AWB every time.
Let's take a typical UK east coast trip - Suffolk Yacht Harbour to Lowestoft.
Average speed in the 389 was around 9knts SOG in 20kts. The Achillies would have been doing around 6 in those conditions. about 5 miles off Lowestoft the forecast bad weather hit us. Wind up to 30+ and rain like you wouldn't believe. Now I knew this was coming before setting off. If I'd been in the Achillies I may well have stayed local. In the jeanneau just a simple reduction in sail, switch on the radar and autopilot (AIS transponder always on). Grab the auto pilot remote, swing the chart plotter mount 180 degrees and retire to shelter where I can still keep a lookout, see the radar and tweek the course with the remote.
Entering Lowestoft was fun with wind and tide across the entrance but having all that horse power from a responsive engine made it all very simple.
Once inside the harbor the heating went on as we motored up river to marina. Tied up then down below for a hot shower and a good meal. Crack open a can of beer, stick the telly on and find out what happened in the world whilst I was having fun. Perfect.
With the Achilles I would have been in the wet stuff for a lot longer and then been cold for quite some time.
I'm not saying the Jeanneau is perfection. Trying to put her in a berth with a cross wind of more than 10kts is a pain with the high freeboard and flatter hull. She blows off faster than my wife can spend money on her equine friends but you learn to deal with it.
So IMHO the modern wide ass boat is not worse to sail than the 70s and 80s boats, just a little different. The benefits in comfort are significant.
PS the keel is still on!

E.T.A.
Achilles in 20kts in calmish seas
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zn_LHz2ODa4

Jeanneau in somewhat more challenging conditions. Could have made it smoother by bearing away a bit or helming myself but was letting Eric AP work
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrLVRStTORA

So you dont attribute any of the improvements to the vast difference in size of vessel?

 

[TangaraToo]

So you dont attribute any of the improvements to the vast difference in size of vessel?

I simply make a comparison based on actual experience of two boat types. Smaller older boat compared to larger modern boat as that is what the OP was asking about. The 389 has a hull length of 36ft (LWL even less) so not as big as the name would suggest. The Achilles hull length is 29'6". OP is looking to increase size of boat so is obviously aware of size changing things. His questions were far more concerned with sailing performance of smaller old vs larger modern. That's what I attempted to assist with.

 

[aevans692]

Hi . .

some great advice thanks ..

Im deff not going to rush into anything , I would like to get out and sail as many different boats as possible , tho this hasn't been very easy ..

tho im not going to be making any Atlantic crossings anytime soon , Its nice to know that I can, if I get the right boat , I have been talking with my wife, and Im likely to be taking a year off from work some time in the future , where we intend to spend that time off sailing, (tho there prob will be a little build up to this) .. ... which makes getting our bigger boat a little more tricky as I would be looking to future proof ourselves as much as poss ..

But in the mean time we have been getting to grips with our little saddler 25

 

[KAL]

You could have a look at a Westerly Konsort, which would give you pretty much everything you need, plus an extremely solid build and sea-keeping, for a relatively low price. For 29’ they are capacious and sail very well. The step up to one of these may be more manageable for you and you will always be able to find a buyer later on if needs be.

BTW, as a Westerly owner, I’m not ancient. I have a Westerly Discus, which is 33’ and extremely comfortable both at sea and alongside. She sails like a dream (we average 6kn SOG on passage) and never ever slams. Ample accommodation for a family as well. I can also arrive in port, have a hot shower and crack open a beer/wine/G&T with ice, fire up Spotify and chill out or catch a movie. If it’s cold, we put the heating on. Whatever floats your boat, as they say. My boat is 38 years old and floats very well indeed.

With any boat, you need to keep up with maintenance, but bits like electronics and convenience items can be part of ongoing upgrades. Ours came with radar and GPS, both of which still work perfectly, but I added chartplotter at helm, converted the cool box into a fridge, added AIS, etc. The original calorifier was holed, so that was replaced with a modern, efficient one. We had a new fully battened main made a couple of years ago, etc, etc. It’s possible to have the boat of your dreams (or a boat that many others would dream of!) for good value.

Good luck in your search and keep using the forum.

 

[Garold]

We sailed from the Uk to Sardinia over the last two/three years.

We did this at a relaxed pace and so were able to choose weather windows to suit us.

We have Beneteau Oceanis 38 which was definitely designed as a charter model for the Med. and it’s been fine. So far nothing significant has fallen off or broken. (A couple of door locks, lost the flagpole in Biscay somewhere, bilge pump stopped auto function).

What we’ve noticed whilst cruising since leaving the UK is that we come across every age, type, and brand of boat. Some of them are surprisingly small, or old, or lacking in maintenance. But many have cruised a few thousand miles over the last couple of years.

The chosen boat is usually determined by budget and perhaps preference for a particular style. But few of the boat choices seems to stop those that have the desire from cruising longer distances.

So, I’d be more of the view that you should choose the boat that satisfies your list of personal requirements (standing headroom etc) and just go when you can. They all seem capable of longer distance cruising as far as we can see.

Garold

Ps. For most people that we’ve met with children, performance is much lower down the list than living accom, bathroom/cooking facilities, storage, easy-sailing options such as in mast reefing etc.

PPs. If you could witness the abuse that chartered AWBs get in the Med you would not question their build quality. Accordingly, I’m not sure that I’d fancy an ex-charter boat myself. I’d look for a private owner boat.

 

[geem]

I simply make a comparison based on actual experience of two boat types. Smaller older boat compared to larger modern boat as that is what the OP was asking about. The 389 has a hull length of 36ft (LWL even less) so not as big as the name would suggest. The Achilles hull length is 29'6". OP is looking to increase size of boat so is obviously aware of size changing things. His questions were far more concerned with sailing performance of smaller old vs larger modern. That's what I attempted to assist with.

Add 6'6" to the length of most cruising boats and you will notice a huge change. Internal volume increases massively. Even jumping to an older Moddy or Westerley the OP would benefit from far more space, comfort and sailing performance.

 

[Mark-1]

do all flatter bottom boats go home when it gets windy

Quite the opposite. Pretty much all sailing schools and Charter Firms use "flatter bottom boats" and they tend to be the boats that go out regardless of weather whereas private boats can afford to be a bit more choosy about the weather. (People who have use of the boat 365 days a year don't have the same desire/need to go out if the weather's not ideal.)

 

[geem]

Quite the opposite. Pretty much all sailing schools and Charter Firms use "flatter bottom boats" and they tend to be the boats that go out regardless of weather whereas private boats can afford to be a bit more choosy about the weather. (People who have use of the boat 365 days a year don't have the same desire/need to go out if the weather's not ideal.)

Its probably true. It doesnt make it comfy though. I suspect sailing schools and charter firms choose cost effective boats for their business rather than the perfect boat for sailing in rough conditions. If you routinely sail long distance where you can expect to meet rough weather then you tend to look for a boat that looks after you a little better than one optimised for marina living.
Bashing to weather in big seas is wet. Weather protection in the cockpit becomes very desirable. A hull that slams grates on the nerves and gives the rig a good shake. Everything gets stressed far more than a hull that carves through the water when it drops off a wave. Can you carry enough canvas to make progress to weather when the waves are trying to stop you? If you need power to drive through the waves then you need sail area. If you need sail area then you need ballast to support the sail area. You need a deep draft to minimise leeway. These attributes make a good boat in rough weather.
If you are running downwind in rough weather will the autopilot cope? How well balanced is the hull? If you have to hand steer rather and watch the autopilot it makes for a different experience. Fine for sailing school boats with lots of people who can take turns at the wheel but in the real world if you are doing it for a few days as husband and wife you soon learn what important.
If this isnt the sailing you want to do then buy a modern flat bottomed boat, get good weather reports and experience the odd squall or gust where you can tell your mates you were out in 40kts and the boat was brilliant. Its not the same

 

[zoidberg]

Lots of views above about sailing characteristics.... Some further thoughts:

Among the considerations should be how the four of you will manage your days, when confined inside your new, larger boat due to continuous rain, foul weather. Moorings and marinas are grossly expensive. Where will you keep and sail her, come and go....? How handy or awkward is she to handle in harbour? How accessible are the bits and spaces you will need to access routinely?

We had 5 days continuous heavy rain at Oban, stuck inside a Rival 34, and incipient bed sores by the time the clouds cleared. But we had a diesel wall heater..... Many modern boats of the JenBenBav type have little 'Lego' mooring cleats not up to the job intended. That's a source of concern, frustration, and repair costs..... What maintenance will you want to be able to do yourselves....? Wil you want to be able to carry and deploy more than one anchor, of the YBW-forums 'recommended' types and size...? Will you want a stern cabin for you two, which you can isolate from the two 'tearaways'...?

 

[robertj]

I have owned a heavy deep and long-keeled ultra-traditional boat, and now have a modern fin and spade rudder cruiser. The modern boats will as others have said will cope with any conditions you will want to sail in with famyou're not crossing the North Atlantic in winter or heading for the Southern Ocean, and even if you occasionally do longer passages - eg across Biscay - you're going to have good mid-range forecasts to avoid truly bad weather.

Sailing modern boats is different, and much of the time better. You reef early, sail them nearer flat, but in lighter winds they are fast, and when moored infinitely more spacious and comfortable. The only downside with many of the newest ones is that the interior joinery is going almost IKEA level downmarket to keep prices down. The structures, though built of thinner GRP in places, are pretty well engineered to have strength and stiffness where needed.

Re your Sadler in 35 knots: brought our 35 ft Jeanneau from Weymouth to Falmouth two-up with 35 knots on the nose most of the way. Boat coped fine, though I got pretty fed up with the slamming.

Your last comment on bringing your boat down in 35kts can’t compare really as the Sadler is only 24’ long and yours is 10’ longer.

 

[aevans692]

Thanks for all the comments ..

Every time we go out with the sadler , im more and more surprised how well she handles, before we get anything else I have deff gotta get out on a few , I would hate to buy something which didnt match up ..

 

[ip485]

I would ask you to at least look at one of the more traditional blue water yachts please.

Of course I am biased with an Island Packet 485.

However, because you say you are considering long term cruising you should also consider how this might alter the attributes of a suitable yacht.

Many modern yachts, while perfectly fine, have different design criteria.

When living aboard its nice to have loads of storage (you realise you just cant have enough), its nice to have sea kindly qualities (one thing to work a yacht around the bay, but do you want to be working a yacht across the ocean the whole time and arrive the other end feeling you have been living on a bouncy castle), its nice to feel if (when) you hit the bottom you arent going to lose the keel (I jest, but there is every chance of the odd bump and keel bolts are always then a worry). I know, I know these sort of yachts are heavier and slower. I come from a racing background, but I dont find the loss of the odd knot all that frustrating compared with the many other advantages. Inevitably there is a compromise, and you dont want something too ploddy, but there is a reason why Island Packets as one example have such strong following amoung genuine cruisers (and others).

Just a thought, that I am glad someone also put to me during the planning process.

 

[Iain C]

I've just gone from an MAB (Sabre 27) to AWB (Bav32) and I can honestly say the difference is huge. I've just come back from a 2 week W Country cruise...the first bit of extended sailing I've done with her...and I'm totally in love with the new boat. SO much more room and comfort, I even did something I'd never done before, have a shower on the way into a port so we could catch closing time at the pub fresh and clean! It was a revelation.

During the cruise I fitted a solar panel, which meant running wires behind all the posh trims/bits of wood, and I will say that yes, when you peel things back some of the finish is a bit dubious, but it's entirely cosmetic and actually the stiffness and amount of engineering around the important bits (i.e. shroud bases) is in a different league to my old boat.

Speed wise she's certainly a fair bit quicker at hull speed than the Sabre, but the big difference is she gets up to speed far more easily if that makes sense. I love the wheel (as does SWMBO)...it makes helming as light as a feather...and I don't subscribe to this "you'll need to reef really early" thing. You don't, you just need to reef appropriately, not actually early, and although I thought I'd hate the mainsheet setup it's fine. The traveller is a vitally important...and very useful...power control and now I've replaced the totally over-specced original string with something far thinner and more freely running, it works a treat.

She might slam a little bit harder than the Sabre in a real blow, however half the noise is gear and bottles etc, not the boat shaking itself to death. And, to be honest if she does slam it tend to stop the pitching well and she gets on with going forwards not just up and down.

Ignoring any creature comforts for a moment, she's a far more efficient, exciting, rewarding sail than my old boat and IMHO more than capable of handling anything that I am likely to encounter in my sailing. Comfort/space/electronics wise the two boats aren't even in the same league. And bear in mind Bavs are getting badly sailed by non-caring charter types every day abroad with minimal issues, I don't see where the "reputation" actually comes from. I for one won't go back to an older MAB unless my personal circumstances change beyond my control....simples, And I do dearly love my old Sabre...now owned by a friend...but I'm now totally sold on space and pace.