Golden Globe Race

[kof]

Have to agree. Modern boats give you that speed to get out of the way of weather, and bigger beam and lighter rigs (less weight aloft) mean much more stability. I've watched many a narrow heavy boat just sit there and get slammed where the more modern designs seem to move with the waves.

I do wonder if the lack of weather info makes a difference here though? Even if they had the weather updates, could they have avoided it?

In 1968 there were 9 starters and one finisher.

Admittedly one of the 9 lost interest and went his own way, but still only RKJ actually finished the task in hand.

In today's race, the combination of human qualities and seamanship are still the most important ingredients, so I would expect a similar rate of attrition.

 

[{151760}]

Have to agree. Modern boats give you that speed to get out of the way of weather, and bigger beam and lighter rigs (less weight aloft) mean much more stability. I've watched many a narrow heavy boat just sit there and get slammed where the more modern designs seem to move with the waves.

I do wonder if the lack of weather info makes a difference here though? Even if they had the weather updates, could they have avoided it?

In general terms if you have good information and good weather-routing software or advice your chances of being engulfed by a storm are much less I'd say. It's probably not possible to circumnavigate without experiencing storms.

 

[geem]

Only Knox-Johnston and, arguably, Moitessier finished the first race out of nine starters. They didn't all start at the same time, so never had the same conditions.
Here is my theorising.
Modern boats are beamier, so their initial stability is greater; they're lighter and faster, so they can get to the optimal zone of any weather system more readily; the lightness, smaller (but more efficient) keels and greater strength of modern materials means they are both stronger yet 'give' more to large seas; and most importantly perhaps, the weather information they get is vastly superior today so they are able often to avoid the worst storms.

Edit: I think my take on this race is that if you want to circumnavigate non-stop buy yourself a modern fast boat with the best modern gear!
But I have great admiration for those who have undertaken this voyage, and I'm hoping fervently that Tomy will be ok. I can't imagine what lying injured in a stricken, mastless boat must be like.

Do you really think that being in a modern boat with wide beam and fin and spade rudder is going to give you an advantage in 15m breaking waves? What new materials in your modern boat will give you an advantage over the GGR boats in these 15m seas and 40+its of wind? I assume you are talking about an equivalent size modern production boat not a state of the art multi-million pound racing machine! Obviously that wouldn't be a fair comparison.

 

[Sandy]

Yet these boats are by far better prepared with better gear, better rigging and better sails/rigs, understanding of the weather is orders of magnitude better - so why are they falling by the wayside like this?

They are racing. pushing the boat to the limit on an old designed hull with modern equipment and expectations.

On the original race nobody had done it before so there was not the pressure to perform or sponsorship deals to be clinched.

 

[laika]

sponsorship deals to be clinched.

There was a reason Nigel Tetley took a gramophone with him....

 

[{151760}]

Do you really think that being in a modern boat with wide beam and fin and spade rudder is going to give you an advantage in 15m breaking waves? What new materials in your modern boat will give you an advantage over the GGR boats in these 15m seas and 40+its of wind? I assume you are talking about an equivalent size modern production boat not a state of the art multi-million pound racing machine! Obviously that wouldn't be a fair comparison.

Yes, I think a wide-beamed boat with greater initial stability will give an advantage. A well-designed spade rudder is easily as strong as a skeg-hung one. Carbon-fibre and such things as dyneema and the exotic sail-cloths give a strength advantage. Lightness also gives an advantage in a lighter boat having less inertia will move with a wave rather than resist it.
Nothing will guarantee total security in extreme conditions.
Who said anything about a fair comparison? I compared old designs with modern ones, which have been evolved from the lessons learnt from the older designs, of course.

Edit: Suhaili, Galway BlazerII, Victress, Teignmouth Electron and Joshua were not production boats, nor were they multi-million pound racers as such didn't exist then. Galway Blazer was designed and built specifically to circumnavigate. Victress was highly innovative. So some of the boats then were the pinnacle of design and technology for the time. The production boats didn't get past South Africa.

 

[geem]

Yes, I think a wide-beamed boat with greater initial stability will give an advantage. A well-designed spade rudder is easily as strong as a skeg-hung one. Carbon-fibre and such things as dyneema and the exotic sail-cloths give a strength advantage. Lightness also gives an advantage in a lighter boat having less inertia will move with a wave rather than resist it.
Nothing will guarantee total security in extreme conditions.
Who said anything about a fair comparison? I compared old designs with modern ones, which have been evolved from the lessons learnt from the older designs, of course.

Edit: Suhaili, Galway BlazerII, Victress, Teignmouth Electron and Joshua were not production boats, nor were they multi-million pound racers as such didn't exist then. Galway Blazer was designed and built specifically to circumnavigate. Victress was highly innovative. So some of the boats then were the pinnacle of design and technology for the time. The production boats didn't get past South Africa.

No well designed spade rudder is as strong as a well designed skeg hung one. A spade rudder even well designed is suspectable to impact. A strong skeg mounted rudder hides behind a strong skeg. Huge difference. A spade rudder is cantalevered beyond the bottom bearing. A skeg hung rudder has a bottom bearing mounted on the skeg. A good spade rudder can only have two bearings. A skeg hung rudder can have three thus sharing the load. A spade rudder is more efficient but at the sacrifice of strength and security. The GGR boats are long keel so they are arguable more secure than even a skeg hung rudder but less efficient.
I suspect dyneema rigging and exotic sail materials are not at the forefront of the minds of those GGR sailors currently in the Southern ocean. Most storm sails on even exotic boats are heavy Dacron.

 

[kof]

Yes, every day of the week. The lightness of the boat means you move with the waves rather than take the force, plus the responsiveness of the boat means you can steer through the waves and change direction. We learnt this in the 79 Fastnet and a subsequent Sydney Hobart. Speed reduces the forces on the boat.

Heavy boats just can't get out of the way. You can sit there, take the hits and hope that you can come through.

Do you really think that being in a modern boat with wide beam and fin and spade rudder is going to give you an advantage in 15m breaking waves? What new materials in your modern boat will give you an advantage over the GGR boats in these 15m seas and 40+its of wind? I assume you are talking about an equivalent size modern production boat not a state of the art multi-million pound racing machine! Obviously that wouldn't be a fair comparison.

 

[geem]

Yes, every day of the week. The lightness of the boat means you move with the waves rather than take the force, plus the responsiveness of the boat means you can steer through the waves and change direction. We learnt this in the 79 Fastnet and a subsequent Sydney Hobart. Speed reduces the forces on the boat.

Heavy boats just can't get out of the way. You can sit there, take the hits and hope that you can come through.

You were in the 79 Fastnet and the Sidney Hobart when you learnt this? Racing with large crews is totally different to singlehanding. You can swap helmsman regularly when you are a big racing crew. Yes you can steer down the waves. How do you expect a single handed to do this 24/7. The boat needs to sail its self on wind steering. You can't get out of the way in dangerous cross swells and pyramid waves. The boat needs to be able to take what is thrown at it whether it is a modern beamy design or an older long keel design when you are sailing single handed.
I don't not know why these boats in the GGR are not towing a Jordan series drogue in the conditions they have encountered. It may well have reduced the chance of capsize.

 

[zoidberg]

I don't not sure why these boats in the GGR are not towing a Jordan series drogue in the conditions they have encountered. It may well have reduced the chance of capsize.

I'm sure the various reasons will emerge, and there wil be plenty of speculation, but consider this.....

The vicious storm that rolled both McGuckin and Tomy - and Slats, too, I understand - had sustained winds over 50 knots/gusting over 70 from the NORTH. That built up 15 metre breaking seas.....

That leading-edge belt of storm passed and was quickly replaced by the trailing belt, of sustained winds over 50 knots/gusting over 70, from the SSW. That also built up 15 metre seas running opposed to the earlier ones.

I suspect that a Jordan Series Drogue would have failed to achieve the necessary 'pull' in the pyramidal 'rearing-and-collapsing' chaotic seas that would have resulted. See the photos in earlier versions of 'Heavy Weather Sailing'.....

 

[kof]

You bring up a good point. If the seas were so bad, why didn't they heave to. Wonder if pressure from racing and being competitive kept them going, instead of stopping and dealing with it. I wouldn't fancy running before this storm, which it appears, most were doing.

...
I don't not know why these boats in the GGR are not towing a Jordan series drogue in the conditions they have encountered. It may well have reduced the chance of capsize.

 

[{151760}]

No well designed spade rudder is as strong as a well designed skeg hung one. A spade rudder even well designed is suspectable to impact. A strong skeg mounted rudder hides behind a strong skeg. Huge difference. A spade rudder is cantalevered beyond the bottom bearing. A skeg hung rudder has a bottom bearing mounted on the skeg. A good spade rudder can only have two bearings. A skeg hung rudder can have three thus sharing the load. A spade rudder is more efficient but at the sacrifice of strength and security. The GGR boats are long keel so they are arguable more secure than even a skeg hung rudder but less efficient.
I suspect dyneema rigging and exotic sail materials are not at the forefront of the minds of those GGR sailors currently in the Southern ocean. Most storm sails on even exotic boats are heavy Dacron.

That's simply not true. There are spade rudders out there that are as strong or stronger than skegs. There are badly-designed and built skegs. There are also weak and poorly built and maintained spade rudders, but to assert that no spade rudder is as strong as a skeg-mounted one is wrong. Take a look at this: https://www.setsail.com/fpb-78-rudder-shaft-engineering-steering-the-right-course/

 

[Deleted member 36384]

That's simply not true. There are spade rudders out there that are as strong or stronger than skegs. There are badly-designed and built skegs. There are also weak and poorly built and maintained spade rudders, but to assert that no spade rudder is as strong as a skeg-mounted one is wrong. Take a look at this: https://www.setsail.com/fpb-78-rudder-shaft-engineering-steering-the-right-course/

There are also spade rudders designed to kick up clear of danger and be reset. Read about them, and their success at Attainable Adventure Cruising.

 

[geem]

That's simply not true. There are spade rudders out there that are as strong or stronger than skegs. There are badly-designed and built skegs. There are also weak and poorly built and maintained spade rudders, but to assert that no spade rudder is as strong as a skeg-mounted one is wrong. Take a look at this: https://www.setsail.com/fpb-78-rudder-shaft-engineering-steering-the-right-course/

But compare a strongly well designed skeg hung rudder to a similar spade hung rudder. Both well designed and strong. Why do expedition boats have skegs? Why do boats designed to go through ice have skegs? A spade hung rudder is more vulnerable. Your article mentions aluminium rudder stocks. If you were building for strength why use aluminium? This article is about racing boats looking to save weight but build to a minimum strength to satisfy rules not over engineered to minimise failure.

 

[macd]

You bring up a good point. If the seas were so bad, why didn't they heave to. Wonder if pressure from racing and being competitive kept them going, instead of stopping and dealing with it. I wouldn't fancy running before this storm, which it appears, most were doing.

There are limits beyond which heaving to is not a safe option (see, for instance, the report into Fastnet '79). Methods of running before a storm exercised the minds of long-distance sailors in the approximate period this race seeks to emulate. Moitessier is particularly interesting on the subject, but almost any account of long distance sailing in the stormy latitudes will deal with it to some degree.

 

[{151760}]

But compare a strongly well designed skeg hung rudder to a similar spade hung rudder. Both well designed and strong. Why do expedition boats have skegs? Why do boats designed to go through ice have skegs? A spade hung rudder is more vulnerable. Your article mentions aluminium rudder stocks. If you were building for strength why use aluminium? This article is about racing boats looking to save weight but build to a minimum strength to satisfy rules not over engineered to minimise failure.

No, it isn't. Dashew yachts are not racing yachts, they are built as go-anywhere yachts. Why use aluminium? Because it's strong and light. Why not?
Consider a force x that is strong enough to deform or break a spade rudder. What do you think would happen to a skeg built to the same scantling if hit with the same force?
A skeg might prevent a stray rope jamming the rudder, and might also provide some lateral stability if the rudder should be lost. My original comment was that I would rather have a modern lightweight fin-keeled boat with a spade rudder for much greater efficiency, assuming a high standard of build, if I were to circumnavigate via the Southern Ocean. I'm not going to, so it's all rather moot, and that's merely my opinion anyway. I think we've drifted this thread enough, so I'm not going to pursue this any further.

 

[geem]

No, it isn't. Dashew yachts are not racing yachts, they are built as go-anywhere yachts. Why use aluminium? Because it's strong and light. Why not?
Consider a force x that is strong enough to deform or break a spade rudder. What do you think would happen to a skeg built to the same scantling if hit with the same force?
A skeg might prevent a stray rope jamming the rudder, and might also provide some lateral stability if the rudder should be lost. My original comment was that I would rather have a modern lightweight fin-keeled boat with a spade rudder for much greater efficiency, assuming a high standard of build, if I were to circumnavigate via the Southern Ocean. I'm not going to, so it's all rather moot, and that's merely my opinion anyway. I think we've drifted this thread enough, so I'm not going to pursue this any further.

 

[geem]

Aluminium isn't strong that's why strong rudder shafts are made of stainless steel. Aluminium is light not strong. We are talking on a thread about boats in the Southern Ocean. If I wasn't racing then I would want strength over performance. It's a long way to anywhere in the Southern Ocean when your rudder fails. Even Skip Novak in his heavy weather videos talks about the risk of damaging spade rudders if you are hove to and moving backwards.

 

[zoidberg]

We might do better focussing on the dire situation south of Ile Saint Paul. Tomy is bedridden with a serious injury; he's has no food for about 3 days now and is vomitting up what he drinks. His mast remains attached and is hanging alongside...

McGuckin has half-a-jury-rig, with a dead engine due to fuel contamination. His boat is in need of external assistance, for Australia is many weeks away even if he can keep his boat moving NNE.

The plan seems to be that McGuckin achieves something of a rendezvous - although that's turning into a 'tailchase' - and then 'monitors' Tomy's situation, providing some comms, until rescue shipping turms up with medical support.

There's another gale due through tonight. If either of them is rolled again.....

 

[{151760}]

Thankfully, Tomy is now rescued, and McGuckin is planning to evacuate to the same Fisheries Patrol ship. A very good outcome from a horrible situation.