Giving way..

[B27]

Thanks everyone, all good points. Our outboard is a weedy little thing. Even with a following tide the incoming channel swell is enough to slow us right down so I thght it prudent to have it running for added security really...and we were healed over with a single reef, in a nice breeze and to all intended purposes 'sailing'.
Suppose my point is. There appears to be this unwritten rule that a 'pack' of dinghy racers have right of way come what may over everyone else which I vehemently disagree with.

If you're vehement, you'll never enjoy sailing in Chichester Harbour.

Were you displaying a motoring cone?
Maybe part of the problem is that it's harder to judge how a sailing boat will act when it's cheating?

Does Chi Hbr Byelaw 4 restrict your 'right' to stand on your colregs rights?
Does colreg 6 ii suggest slowing down might be a good idea when there's a concentration of boats?


I think it might be fun to send the OP into Padstow when the Shrimpers are racing!

Places like Chi, it's much nicer if you understand what other water users are doing and try to give one another a bit of space.

 

[Puffin10032]

If you're vehement, you'll never enjoy sailing in Chichester Harbour.

Were you displaying a motoring cone?
Maybe part of the problem is that it's harder to judge how a sailing boat will act when it's cheating?

Does Chi Hbr Byelaw 4 restrict your 'right' to stand on your colregs rights?
Does colreg 6 ii suggest slowing down might be a good idea when there's a concentration of boats?


I think it might be fun to send the OP into Padstow when the Shrimpers are racing!

Places like Chi, it's much nicer if you understand what other water users are doing and try to give one another a bit of space.

Those bylaws make an interesting read; especially "Notes For The Guidance Of Users" paragraph 4a which reminds users that

"Every vessel under power, whether under sail or not, is considered to be a power-driven"

so the OP was legally obliged to keep clear of the sailing dinghies due to his admission that he had his engine running.

 

[The Q]

Can someone show with a map the area this event occured. At the moment I can't see or make a judgement on the events.

This is from someone who sails / races and motorboats on waterways between 50ft and 200ft wide..

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Rather more than 200ft wide. The tide runs pretty hard, in both directions as you can imagine.

 

[winch2]

Gentlemen/Ladies. Where on earth does it say this all happened in Chi Harbour? I'm not going to divulge the location because quite frankly I think following the tone of this thread I could be right in thinking I may have reason to fear for my well being as I plod out, engine screaming next weekend...haha.
As Mrs Winch said the other day... "Is that the mass tearing of acres of Musto velcro I can hear down the road and getting louder by the minute? But seriously. It was no big deal at all, I just thght it an interesting event and have enjoyed, up to a point, everyones wisdom.

 

[The Q]

Thanks for the map..

So it's a place unknown.
However in comparison to Chichester harbour, this is just under 200 ft wide and it narrows to 100ft ish round the next corner.. up to 3 maybe 4 mph tide out, maybe 2mph tide in.. up to 100 sailing boats from 8 ft to 45ft in a mile and a half of river during regatta week.

As for the comment "it's not their race track to commandeer at will", it's not your waterway to commandeer at will either.

Each boat has equal rights to be on the water, All just have to obey colregs unless overridden by local regs, in our case that's Broads navigation regulations.

It was good of the OP to turn down a little, though he could have held his course, both under colregs and RRS. The competitors would have to turn away anyway even if the OP didn't turn down.
I think the biggest problem is non competitors thinking the competitors are getting too close, in our situations we will sail within 6 inches of non competitors, but then we don't normally have to cope with waves, just hire boat wash.

I'd ignore expressions on competitors faces, they're just annoyed at being at the back and you are just another obstacle to pass just like a buoy that happens to be in the way..

I advise non competitors on broads websites / Facebook to just stick to the rules, whether sail or motor and realise competitors are not going to try to ram you. In general most racing boats are a lot more fragile than non competitors boats they don't want to break their boat nor lose a race by getting in a tangle with a non competitor.

The majority of questions I get on line are from hire motorboaters though, who mostly don't have a clue as to any regulations, not even knowing they exist. So a lot of what I explain is what the rules are, but with advice that keeping out of the way of a boat that has " right of way" does not mean trying to weave your way down the middle of the river. But that's not part of this conversation.
( Yes I know it's not rights of way, but trying to explain stand on vessels etc is a complication unneeded)

 

[oldbloke]

I am sorry if our communal response has disappointed. Certainly there has been no chorus of "yeah you're right, bloody racers". But there has been plenty of trying to analyse the situation as far as is able from the info given. Some assumptions made, possibly incorrect. Trying to see how the situation arose and how it could be explained and avoided.
However, generally, most on here appear to be aware that crowded waters have lots of people on, sometimes with differing priorities and mostly the happiest solutions involve anticipation and understanding of others wants and actions.

 

[B27]

Gentlemen/Ladies. Where on earth does it say this all happened in Chi Harbour? I'm not going to divulge the location because quite frankly I think following the tone of this thread I could be right in thinking I may have reason to fear for my well being as I plod out, engine screaming next weekend...haha.
As Mrs Winch said the other day... "Is that the mass tearing of acres of Musto velcro I can hear down the road and getting louder by the minute? But seriously. It was no big deal at all, I just thght it an interesting event and have enjoyed, up to a point, everyones wisdom.

Nothing as impressive as the Op's encounter but we too are in Chi Harb and I often marvel at the amount of large fish hovering underneath our mooring bouy, just sat there motionless for ages.....

Have you edited out the identity of your boat too?

 

[SaltIre]

Gentlemen/Ladies. Where on earth does it say this all happened in Chi Harbour? I'm not going to divulge the location because quite frankly I think following the tone of this thread I could be right in thinking I may have reason to fear for my well being as I plod out, engine screaming next weekend...haha.
As Mrs Winch said the other day... "Is that the mass tearing of acres of Musto velcro I can hear down the road and getting louder by the minute? But seriously. It was no big deal at all, I just thght it an interesting event and have enjoyed, up to a point, everyones wisdom.

You didn't say where the incident took place. There has been no mention in the thread of where it was, simply that you were tacking out of the harbour entrance .

Tacking our lumbering old Crabber out of the harbour entrance with tide and motor running and there was a very busy dinghy race on..

The world is a big place so it could have been anywhere, to be honest.
As B27 opined you posted this recently in another thread, from which folk could have mistakenly thought it was Chichester Harbour. 2+2 =5...

Nothing as impressive as the Op's encounter but we too are in Chi Harb and I often marvel at the amount of large fish hovering underneath our mooring bouy, just sat there motionless for ages.....

 

[Birdseye]

Those bylaws make an interesting read; especially "Notes For The Guidance Of Users" paragraph 4a which reminds users that

"Every vessel under power, whether under sail or not, is considered to be a power-driven"

so the OP was legally obliged to keep clear of the sailing dinghies due to his admission that he had his engine running.

No. If you wish to be legalistic rather than practical, then you can argue endlessly just what "under power" means. At one extreme for example, your plotter is under power when switched on as are your instruments let alone an idling engine just being used for battery charging.

Have fun arguing the toss. B27 has the right attitude.

One of the great things about sailing is that it isnt infested with police and traps and lawyers like motoring. Common sense prevails

 

[winch2]

Thanks all. Funny thing is I feel this thread has certainly helped the decision making process, so starting it I think has been a most worthy excercise. And as I said before, "every single chap with a yacht has at some time or other made a navigational/operational error."
This weekend we were out again with the massed gaggles ahead, and behind us. Certainly never a dull moment where we sail....Now if only the wind would play ball..haha

 

[Chris 249]

No. If you wish to be legalistic rather than practical, then you can argue endlessly just what "under power" means. At one extreme for example, your plotter is under power when switched on as are your instruments let alone an idling engine just being used for battery charging.

Nope, there's a simple definition in the IRPCS; "(b) The term "power-driven vessel" means any vessel propelled by machinery." A plotter is not "propelling" the boat so it's clearly not relevant.

They also state that "A power-driven vessel is defined in Rule 3, definitions, and includes a sailing vessel that is also using its engines, if fitted." "Using its engines" is a wide definition, and it does not hint at or contain any reference to or restriction of the particular use the engine to which the engine is being put. If it's being "used for battery charging" it's being "used".

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Nope, there's a simple definition in the IRPCS; "(b) The term "power-driven vessel" means any vessel propelled by machinery." A plotter is not "propelling" the boat so it's clearly not relevant.

They also state that "A power-driven vessel is defined in Rule 3, definitions, and includes a sailing vessel that is also using its engines, if fitted." "Using its engines" is a wide definition, and it does not hint at or contain any reference to or restriction of the particular use the engine to which the engine is being put. If it's being "used for battery charging" it's being "used".

That’s fair enough, as you could stick it in gear to bail out of a situation, not having to pratt around starting it.

 

[awol]

They also state that "A power-driven vessel is defined in Rule 3, definitions, and includes a sailing vessel that is also using its engines, if fitted." "Using its engines" is a wide definition, and it does not hint at or contain any reference to or restriction of the particular use the engine to which the engine is being put. If it's being "used for battery charging" it's being "used".

Actually "Rule 3 c) The term “sailing vessel” means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used." Nothing about engines. If the oars, gearbox and propellor, paddles are not in use, not sure about the crew rocking the boat, and the sails are up then it is a sailing vessel.
Just 'cos there's water pulsing out of a hole in the hull does not make it power driven.
Anyway, there is a handy day shape that proper sailors use to indicate when motor sailing, isn't there?

 

[dunedin]

….
Anyway, there is a handy day shape that proper sailors use to indicate when motor sailing, isn't there?

Has such a shape ever been seen in Scottish waters?

I think sightings of Nessie are more common.

 

[awol]

Has such a shape ever been seen in Scottish waters?

I think sightings of Nessie are more common.

I hoisted one during my YM Practical a few years back and it's in the locker with its circular mate which I have been known to use.

 

[doug748]

Sorry if this has been done before, and lets face it its pretty basic but after what happend to us on Sunday well... a guys got to to vent..right?

Tacking our lumbering old Crabber out of the harbour entrance with tide and motor running and there was a very busy dinghy race on.. The pack were well on their away but there were a couple of stragglers behind us catching us fast and we're all on port tack with them to windward and about 15 feet behind us...with not a lot of room left as we approached the steep shore. Anyway the front one starts to push down on us looking daggers as if he wants us to yield and they're both to windward. Well in the end we did yield and bore off down wind a smidge, they than rounded up to port and shot off to catch the pack who were now a long way in the distance exiting the harbour entrance.

The thing is the harbour channel is naturally pretty narrow and there are a lot of cruisers sailing in and out and we're just a tiny 19 foot traditional day boat. . Its not a race track for the club to commandeer at will as there are many other users and we all need to get along so to speak and the last thing I wanted was for there to be an incident in what is a very narrow area of highly congested water.
Sorry for the grumble, I just felt rather put upon I suppose knowing we were right and they were wrong.. even tho they were... "racing".

Post 2 seems to sum things up. Sharing the water with racers it's always nice not to get in the way; racing yourself it is always pleasing when boats avoid you. Sometimes you do intrude because it can't be helped. I would not fret about it.

However I have noted that those at the back of the fleet are often the keenest racers, most ready to stand on their right (or wrongs, as it may well be in this case) and most likely to do a lot of shouting. If they are children it's excusable. if it is a case of Captain Queeg syndrome, then it's not unknown for people to give them a dose of their own medicine.

.

 

[Momac]

Anyway the front one starts to push down on us looking daggers as if he wants us to yield

Is ''looking daggers'' a signal in the Colregs or any eg. RYA publication?