Garmin disaster!

[ss2016]

If you have a Garmin 84xx chartplotter and Reactor40 AP and associated bits, and if Active Captain suggests you should update the software, I strongly suggest you DON'T. I did and it brings all sorts of problems:
A) The new AP display on a combo screen is ergonomically incompatible with the dedicated AP display.
B) It provides NO additional functionality though demands more real estate thus reducing that available to the chart. A reduction of situational awarenes.
C) Grid functionality is reduced
D) Ability to follow a route has ceased.
Garmin are reluctant to admit their cock up or provide a way of reverting to the excellent software I have used for two years. Presumably they have little experience of skippering a boat in rocky waters and certainly poor performance testing before new releases. I feel able to say this currently navigating the rocks of Brittany and managed mainframe software 50 years ago.

 

[PaulRainbow]

You should be able to revert to the previous software using an SD card.

GPSMAP 84xx/86xx/87xx Owners Manual - Updating the Device Software Using a Memory Card

The April 6th 2023 updates are here: Garmin: GPSMAP Series with SD Card Note

If they are too new, ask Garmin to send you a previous version on an SD card.

 

[jfm]

Sorry to hear this.
I asked someone ultra-senior in Kansas, and maybe you should re-install the software. Specifically:

• There is a new autopilot page but it has no reduction in functionality and should be same size. Not sure of your exact point A - obvs autopilot layout is moving to landscape rectangle because of GHC 50 replacing GHP20 but I'm surprised GHC20 doesn't work ok (if that's what you have)
• Not sure what "it" is in your point B - the new software in general? or A/pilot?
• GRID is not reduced. It's unchanged except for the benefit that with the new a/p page you can now steer the boat by rotating the GRID knob (that's really nice).
• Route following has not changed at all, and of all your points this one most strongly suggests you have a glitch and maybe should download and install again.

Plse let us know how you get on and hope your situ improves.

 

[ss2016]

Paul/jfm, thank you both for your interest.

Paul, thanks for the links. I don't want to get to the latest version, I want to go back a version to the one that worked. I did propose this to Garmin support but they were not interested. Perhaps I should push harder. If I do this without them I am of course on my own. I am also unclear if the previous version is available. I have always used Active Captain for updates since the SD card slot is so inaccessible

Jfm, are you a user of the same products?
'Ultra senior in Kansas' is perhaps out of touch with the product and support customers receive. If he talks to his support people, in particular Michelle, she will very clearly explain that the new ghc50 display on a combo screen requires more space than the ghc20 (that most of us currently have) and therefore reduce ergonomics and chart size, therefore situational awareness /safety. GHC20 customers should be able to keep the ghc20 varient of the display.
'It' in my point B referred to the Ghc50 style combo display for a ghc20 customer. As I have explained it is ergonomically ignorant and reduces safety. It does however also apply to the new software in THAT IT DOES NOT WORK IN TWO IMPORTANT WAYS:
1) The Grid functionality has regressed. Steering the boat with the little wheel is not new. I have done it for the last 2 years until this release and the CCU replacement. Now I can't! That is a clear and major step backwards.
2) And yes route following has gone also. It offers to steer a route, you press engage, it goes to heading hold. The AP diagnostics clearly state AP not available. Why? I have asked support for a list of settings to check, nothing.

This all started with a faulty installation and a CCU with an intermittent fault. Finally after just short of 2 years the CCU was replaced and regrettably the software brought up to the latest revision. I preferred the intermittent fault.

I have been trying to get resolution through the Garmin support channel. The problem is they seem to be well geared up for people who can't RTFM but not for real problems. They do not have a structured approach to problem solving. They intimate that the product has a software bug but have not confirmed this. The result being that I as a customer am loosing confidence in Garmin. A pity, I have flown around Europe very happily with their products.

I would be really grateful if 'Ultra senior in Kansas' would like to help a customer if he could have someone who has a structured approach and knowledge to contact me. ssamps@gmail.com Please pass him a copy of this. Alternatively perhaps he could give me the email of the UK MD and I will contact him directly. I hope Garmin will decide to fix a customer problem rather than hope the customer will go away. He won't. They have a legally enforceable warrenty.

 

[ss2016]

PS Active Captain does not appear to have a way to say reinstall. It does however check its own work. I would much rather do it the Garmin reccomended way than embark on a new approach when it is probably just a very poorly thought out and tested release.

 

[PaulRainbow]

I'm using a 1223xsv, Reactor 40 and GHC20 with the latest software.

I don't see any of the above issues, split screen plotter/AP is an equal split.

When i did the update (2 or 3 weeks ago) the update did stall and i had to do it again, after which it all worked fine.

Re-applying the update, using a SD card if necessary, is one of Garmins recommended methods, it is not "a new approach", it's how things were always done prior to Active Captain.

 

[jfm]

I'm using a 1223xsv, Reactor 40 and GHC20 with the latest software.

I don't see any of the above issues, split screen plotter/AP is an equal split.

When i did the update (2 or 3 weeks ago) the update did stall and i had to do it again, after which it all worked fine.

Re-applying the update, using a SD card if necessary, is one of Garmins recommended methods, it is not "a new approach", it's how things were always done prior to Active Captain.

Yup that's good advice imho.

ss2016, I don't want to offend you, but you do seem hell bent on the theory that you're correct and Garmin are at fault. Their user base esp in USA/Florida is truly enormous, yet I can't find any internet reference to anyone else having the problems you're having, including on forums like thehulltruth etc. That speaks volumes. What you describe is also not in line with what Garmin folk are telling me (the senior guy I know runs his own boat with Garmin gear and latest software, and no problems), and what Paul reports above.

In answer to your Q, I am a long time (10yrs) Garmin 8xxx user and (from launch) Reactor user. I don't have a boat atm, sold the last one a few months ago, so I can't speak first hand about the latest software. I take delivery of a small new boat end of this month with only one 84xx and one TD50, and will try then and report back. I have a larger project with eleven 84xx but that's not till early next year. So I'm of limited help in first hand use of new software, sorry.

I would strongly reinforce what Paul suggests: reinstall with SD card, and see where that gets you, to eliminate an installation error. That is a structured approach to solving this problem.

 

[ss2016]

Paul/jfm, once again thank you for your thoughts.
Paul, if the download was common for the 1223 and the 8416 it would be very relevant, but there could easily be a bug in one and not the other. Garmin support as I have indicated have intimated a software bug but won't say yes/no.
By a 'new approach' I meant a new approach for me. Active C is a Garmin way of doing it and does not require the plotter to be deinstalled with the relevant risks. An 8416 in one hand and an SD card in another will sooner or later lead to disaster. I would perhaps feel differently if the card slot was easily accessible without physical deinstallation.

Jfm, you seem very defensive of Garmin. Are you a part of it? I really don't see why you say I might be at fault. All I have done is:
A) take delivery of a Garmin dealer installed system - installed with a loose connection according to the local dealer.
B) after a year of spurious problems they sent a dealer who changed the CCU.
those two issues probably solved the intermittents
C) run the dockside and sea trials. Somewhere in there wanting to register the new CCU it decided before proceeding it wanted the latest update which I let it do. It is a pity it had to change because up until that point I was delighted with the software.

The result is I am in a worse situation than I was with the hardware intermittent as I have described. Having found the several problems I have, I have documented them to support, asked questions like 'what could cause the AP diagnostics to say it is not available' to try to start a structured approach to resolution.? I have probably spent 25 or 30 hours on hold, talking and trying to find what does/does not work. They are out of their depth. They have suggested several things but not a request to reinstall or how to overwrite the up to date one. I have not seen that documented. They have half suggested a new release will fix the problem.

So in what way am I wrong? (No offence taken by the way.) Yes, I am at the end of my tether with a not working system. If you bought a new car and after 2 years the steering did something odd occasionaly or did not work with the new software would you not feel the manufacturer should take some responsibility?

One other point and no offence intended. Can you please explain to me how you think a GhC20 display on the GhC20 and a Ghc50 display on the 8416 is an ergonomic step forward, especially when it reduces the available space for the chart/situational awareness /safety? It would have been so easy for the installation software to download the appropriate version. Perhaps you thought this because you did not know the little wheel could steer the boat. It has done that since I took delivery 2 years ago after I set it up. It was always a logical capability though I never met anyone who knew it could. Most people don't RTFM.

It would be really helpful if you do have contacts in Garmin if you could get him to put me in touch with an engineer who knows the product. I have been in his position and our culture was never to think an unhappy customer was beneath us. Very much the opposite

 

[PaulRainbow]

Paul/jfm, once again thank you for your thoughts.
Paul, if the download was common for the 1223 and the 8416 it would be very relevant, but there could easily be a bug in one and not the other. Garmin support as I have indicated have intimated a software bug but won't say yes/no.
By a 'new approach' I meant a new approach for me. Active C is a Garmin way of doing it and does not require the plotter to be deinstalled with the relevant risks. An 8416 in one hand and an SD card in another will sooner or later lead to disaster. I would perhaps feel differently if the card slot was easily accessible without physical deinstallation.

The download and software version for the 8416 and 1223 is the same.

As JFM said, if it was buggy software i doubt very much you would be the only person with the issue.

One other point and no offence intended. Can you please explain to me how you think a GhC20 display on the GhC20 and a Ghc50 display on the 8416 is an ergonomic step forward, especially when it reduces the available space for the chart/situational awareness /safety? It would have been so easy for the installation software to download the appropriate version.

Again, i'm not seeing a GHC50 display on my 1223 when in split screen, it's a 50/50 split.

I would still re-install the software.

 

[jfm]

Paul/jfm, once again thank you for your thoughts.
Paul, if the download was common for the 1223 and the 8416 it would be very relevant, but there could easily be a bug in one and not the other. Garmin support as I have indicated have intimated a software bug but won't say yes/no.
By a 'new approach' I meant a new approach for me. Active C is a Garmin way of doing it and does not require the plotter to be deinstalled with the relevant risks. An 8416 in one hand and an SD card in another will sooner or later lead to disaster. I would perhaps feel differently if the card slot was easily accessible without physical deinstallation.

Jfm, you seem very defensive of Garmin. Are you a part of it? I really don't see why you say I might be at fault. All I have done is:
A) take delivery of a Garmin dealer installed system - installed with a loose connection according to the local dealer.
B) after a year of spurious problems they sent a dealer who changed the CCU.
those two issues probably solved the intermittents
C) run the dockside and sea trials. Somewhere in there wanting to register the new CCU it decided before proceeding it wanted the latest update which I let it do. It is a pity it had to change because up until that point I was delighted with the software.

The result is I am in a worse situation than I was with the hardware intermittent as I have described. Having found the several problems I have, I have documented them to support, asked questions like 'what could cause the AP diagnostics to say it is not available' to try to start a structured approach to resolution.? I have probably spent 25 or 30 hours on hold, talking and trying to find what does/does not work. They are out of their depth. They have suggested several things but not a request to reinstall or how to overwrite the up to date one. I have not seen that documented. They have half suggested a new release will fix the problem.

So in what way am I wrong? (No offence taken by the way.) Yes, I am at the end of my tether with a not working system. If you bought a new car and after 2 years the steering did something odd occasionaly or did not work with the new software would you not feel the manufacturer should take some responsibility?

One other point and no offence intended. Can you please explain to me how you think a GhC20 display on the GhC20 and a Ghc50 display on the 8416 is an ergonomic step forward, especially when it reduces the available space for the chart/situational awareness /safety? It would have been so easy for the installation software to download the appropriate version. Perhaps you thought this because you did not know the little wheel could steer the boat. It has done that since I took delivery 2 years ago after I set it up. It was always a logical capability though I never met anyone who knew it could. Most people don't RTFM.

It would be really helpful if you do have contacts in Garmin if you could get him to put me in touch with an engineer who knows the product. I have been in his position and our culture was never to think an unhappy customer was beneath us. Very much the opposite

I'm not trying to be defensive, and categorically did not say you were wrong/at fault by the way. I'm just trying to be objective and rational: you're apparently the only one with this problem out of thousands of new software users including Paul R on here. Nearly every boat in Florida has Garmin 8xxx or 86xxx, so there will be thousands with the new software.

I'm not part of Garmin; I'm merely a long-time customer who has bought in high volumes (at retail prices). In interests of full disclosure a board level senior Kansas person and one of their top UK guys are good friends, and the factory gives me plenty of support, particularly to my current boat builder.

My advice would be basically same as Paul R's: I would suggest access the SD card slot (surely not difficult?) or better still install a remote card reader, then reinstall software via SD card. I always do my updates that way. This is an important first step to get out of the way.

 

[jfm]

One other point and no offence intended. Can you please explain to me how you think a GhC20 display on the GhC20 and a Ghc50 display on the 8416 is an ergonomic step forward, especially when it reduces the available space for the chart/situational awareness /safety? It would have been so easy for the installation software to download the appropriate version.

Just on this point, I'm not seeing the problem. (Screenshots would be much better than words). GHC20 is legacy with buttons and a limited square screen, while GHC50 is latest with rectangular screen and touch interface. I don't see what is wrong with having a legacy display "look" on a GHC20 while on the same boat there is a GHC50 "look" when you display the a/pilot on the 84xx (if I'm understanding your concern correctly). They are not imho significantly enough different "looks", and one relies on the a/pilot for situational awareness to such a limited extent, that I just don't see the safety issue. Alternatively, if you are saying that the a/pilot display on 84xx chews up space so reducing situational awareness, see Paul's comments above stating that the 84xx space consumption hasn't changed. Frankly if this is an issue just use the GHC20 for a/pilot control, and don't consume valuable 84xx space. GHC20 does a good job.

 

[ss2016]

Paul, how do you get it to install when it is already there preferably using AC?
I know you are trying to help but the table you pointed me at does not indicate that a 1223 and 8416 are the same software. By my reading the 1223 is on release 30.10 and the 8416 is on 30.20. It is only the latest release which as Garmin have confirmed to me forces the ghc50 display. Even for the 84xx product there are two different releases it would appear depending on the xx even though they are both called 30.20. Perhaps I am reading the table wrong but if the releases are all the same why breakout all the different downloads?

 

[ss2016]

Jfm you asked me to let you know how the situation progresses.

1. A result! This morning I got an unsolicited call from Garmin. Its a pity I had to kick off to get that and a pity they do not bother to read what I had written and told them. But the good news, they are taking the failures seriously now.

2. As was obvious, to me at least, re installing the same software was not going to achieve anything. It was certainly not their agenda.

3. The AP software is NOT behaving as it should was their bottom line. They were most puzzled and decided it was above their pay grade and have sent a whole lot of info to Kansas who so far have said 'Oh!' as far as I can tell from the afternoon update.

4. I have always agreed that it is very odd that the problems have not surfaced recently. I can only put this down to a) as I explained to Paul there are different versions of 30.20 even on 84xx plotters. Paul's 1223 is running a version of 30.10 I think, completely different. b) many/most don't upgrade frequently to new versions (I only did it because the replacement CCU forced me to), c)most people don't use most of the features. Eg you thought steering the boat via the Grid was new. d) someone has to be first to recognise a problem.

5. Their proposed solution is they get an engineer on board ASAP to go through their system.

6. They did agree that the GHC50 offers no additional capability but indicated it looked nice. (I suppose this is a way to sell more product.) Many people don't use these products seriously but do want to be able to boast they have the latest model.

7. You make the point Jim the '50 has touch buttons. Why would you want to touch it? If you have Grid there is absolutely no point and you can't if the weather gets a little bit serious. Its for marketing and shallow thinkers. You don't rely on the AP for situational awareness obviously, but you do on the chart. If you truly don't understand that try covering all of your chart except for a bit perhaps the size of a postage stamp and see how you get on! Size matters. Paul's comment re the space requirement of the '50 on an 84xx is wrong. Garmin are in no doubt about that. It needs more, therefore less chart.

I think my initial comment is more than born out. If you have an 84xx I would be very careful wrt upgrading to 30.20

 

[PaulRainbow]

Jfm you asked me to let you know how the situation progresses.

1. A result! This morning I got an unsolicited call from Garmin. Its a pity I had to kick off to get that and a pity they do not bother to read what I had written and told them. But the good news, they are taking the failures seriously now.

2. As was obvious, to me at least, re installing the same software was not going to achieve anything. It was certainly not their agenda.

Re-installing software will be something that pretty much everyone here has done, several times. As i said earlier, i had to re-install this update myself.

3. The AP software is NOT behaving as it should was their bottom line. They were most puzzled and decided it was above their pay grade and have sent a whole lot of info to Kansas who so far have said 'Oh!' as far as I can tell from the afternoon update.

4. I have always agreed that it is very odd that the problems have not surfaced recently. I can only put this down to a) as I explained to Paul there are different versions of 30.20 even on 84xx plotters. Paul's 1223 is running a version of 30.10 I think, completely different. b) many/most don't upgrade frequently to new versions (I only did it because the replacement CCU forced me to), c)most people don't use most of the features. Eg you thought steering the boat via the Grid was new. d) someone has to be first to recognise a problem.

5. Their proposed solution is they get an engineer on board ASAP to go through their system.

6. They did agree that the GHC50 offers no additional capability but indicated it looked nice. (I suppose this is a way to sell more product.) Many people don't use these products seriously but do want to be able to boast they have the latest model.

7. You make the point Jim the '50 has touch buttons. Why would you want to touch it? If you have Grid there is absolutely no point and you can't if the weather gets a little bit serious. Its for marketing and shallow thinkers. You don't rely on the AP for situational awareness obviously, but you do on the chart. If you truly don't understand that try covering all of your chart except for a bit perhaps the size of a postage stamp and see how you get on! Size matters.

Pretty poor attitude with many of those comments !!

Paul's comment re the space requirement of the '50 on an 84xx is wrong. Garmin are in no doubt about that. It needs more, therefore less chart.

I think my initial comment is more than born out. If you have an 84xx I would be very careful wrt upgrading to 30.20

I made no comments about the space on the 84xx, i simply said on my setup the screen is still split 50/50

I've seen lots of issues with software updates, although not with Garmin, plenty with Raymarine. Whenever it happens there are posts about the problems all over the internet, it almost never happens to just one person, unless the update didn't install correctly or there are some other issues with system.

The fix is always the same, if one can be bothered to fix it, rather than ranting.

1) Re-install the software.
2) If that doesn't work, roll back a version of software and wait for the next, bug free, update.

Pour a glass of your favourite tipple, sit back and chill.

 

[ss2016]

Garmin have confirmed that at least a part of the problem is a software bug they will fix in the next release.

 

[[165042]]

Just wait for the screen to delaminate - then you'll have something to complain about