Fulmar & Twister Owners: Opinions please!

[Tranona]

The EG Van De Stadt designed Pioneer 9 was a 30ft grp boat designed in 1959, so the fin and rudder design was a lot older than 1980. He had been using this design with wooden boats throughout the 1950's. The later Pioneer 10 might be a useful model for the OP, certainly well within the budget.

It is not just a matter of separating the rudder from the keel. The Pionier is still an "old style" boat with a wineglass shaped hull long overhangs and a narrow beam (nearly 3' less than the Moody. It has even less room inside than the Twister.

 

[Tranona]

It's not coincidental that boat builders push how light their new model is. It means they don't have to put as much into them and it saves them money.

That is simply not true. My Bavaria 33 which is only a bit longer than a Fulmar displaces 5500kgs over 1000kgs more than the Fulmar. Go up a size and the 37 displaces 7000kgs compared with a Moody 37 at 7300kgs, a Hanse 385 is 7600kgs and an HR 370 at 8300kgs. The big difference now is that the weight goes into the boat and not into the amount of ballast needed to keep it upright. Yes, some builders push lightness, but it is in relation to the weight of the hull that is reduced by using advanced layups allowing more to be put into other parts of the boat.

Always worth checking the facts before making sweeping statements.

 

[geem]

That is simply not true. My Bavaria 33 which is only a bit longer than a Fulmar displaces 5500kgs over 1000kgs more than the Fulmar. Go up a size and the 37 displaces 7000kgs compared with a Moody 37 at 7300kgs, a Hanse 385 is 7600kgs and an HR 370 at 8300kgs. The big difference now is that the weight goes into the boat and not into the amount of ballast needed to keep it upright. Yes, some builders push lightness, but it is in relation to the weight of the hull that is reduced by using advanced layups allowing more to be put into other parts of the boat.

Always worth checking the facts before making sweeping statements.

So its ok for you to choose specific boat to hammer home your point but it's not OK for me to choose a fin and skeg design from the 1960s or for another other poster to explain to you than there were fin keel boats in the 1950s.
This is a forum. It's about discussion. You don't get the final say

 

[fredrussell]

…a fin and skeg design from the 1960s or for another other poster to explain to you than there were fin keel boats in the 1950s…

Indeed. And a point well made. But to me that was the beginning of the modern era in terms of boat design. Up until that point sailing boats, pretty much all of them, had a long keel. I’m (obviously) no expert, but that’s about right. no?

 

[Tranona]

So its ok for you to choose specific boat to hammer home your point but it's not OK for me to choose a fin and skeg design from the 1960s or for another other poster to explain to you than there were fin keel boats in the 1950s.
This is a forum. It's about discussion. You don't get the final say

If you really want to be pedantic fin keel boats date right back into the late 19th century. I could have chosen any number of boats from the mid 70s onwards that were contemporary to the Twister, Halcyon 27, Nic 26 and 32 etc that were fundamentally different in design philosophy and vastly outsold the older designs. The Moody for example sold 145 in the 3 years it was in production compared with less than 200 over 20 years for the Twister. The "fin keel" bit is misleading as I pointed out with the Pionier which was still an old style narrow, deep hull but with the long keel truncated and the rudder moved aft. That was not unusual as a stepping stone - S&S used that form on a number of boats. However it did not last long as the hull form started mainly by Primrose with its wide beam, bolt on keel and rudder aft became dominant over the next 15 years or so.

Nothing to do with "final say" - just correcting your apparent misunderstanding.

 

[awol]

Many moons ago when the world was young, I was a long distance cyclist (PBP ancien de quatre fois - for those who care) - the kind of cyclist whose bikes were worth a lot more than his car. Many times I was asked, sometimes by complete strangers, "what style, etc. of bike should I buy?". My answer usually was "just buy something 2nd hand and then see how it goes" with the aim that if they caught the cycling bug then they would progress and if they didn't there was not much lost. This thread reminds me of that but with the "experts" arguing for their particular answer.
Having sailed on other people's boats for many years I eventually bought a quarter share of a Fulmar with 3-bladed prop and a mainsheet that tried to garrote me when we gybed. After that I spent a year with an old Laser while half-heartedly looking for a "yacht". I ended up buying a CO32 in Lagos and sailing it to the Clyde during which voyage we bonded and, despite the various less than desirable design features, she won me over.
My advise to the OP (remember them?) is to buy something/anything that takes their partner's fancy and go sailing on it , join a club and crew on as many other boats as they can. At some point they will either love the boat they have or hanker after something else specific. However they do it they will have spent a shed load of money on buying and just keeping a boat - swapping just needs a bit more!

 

[geem]

If you really want to be pedantic fin keel boats date right back into the late 19th century. I could have chosen any number of boats from the mid 70s onwards that were contemporary to the Twister, Halcyon 27, Nic 26 and 32 etc that were fundamentally different in design philosophy and vastly outsold the older designs. The Moody for example sold 145 in the 3 years it was in production compared with less than 200 over 20 years for the Twister. The "fin keel" bit is misleading as I pointed out with the Pionier which was still an old style narrow, deep hull but with the long keel truncated and the rudder moved aft. That was not unusual as a stepping stone - S&S used that form on a number of boats. However it did not last long as the hull form started mainly by Primrose with its wide beam, bolt on keel and rudder aft became dominant over the next 15 years or so.

Nothing to do with "final say" - just correcting your apparent misunderstanding.

No misunderstanding. I understand the definition of modern. I dont use it to describe a 45 year old design

 

[Tranona]

No misunderstanding. I understand the definition of modern. I dont use it to describe a 45 year old design

Seemingly you have no understanding (not misunderstanding) of context in which the term is being used. It is not an absolute term, but only makes sense in a particular context such as in the way I used it. In the context of this discussion a Moody 29 or a Fulmar is "modern" compared with other boats under consideration such as the Twister or Golden Hind even though they were all being built at the same time. That its what makes the difference and the difference is big enough to justify 167 discussion posts - even if many of them fail to recognise this and wander off into irrelevance.

 

[geem]

.....

Indeed. And a point well made. But to me that was the beginning of the modern era in terms of boat design. Up until that point sailing boats, pretty much all of them, had a long keel. I’m (obviously) no expert, but that’s about right. no?

'Modern era' does put the use of modern into context. I agree.

 

[geem]

Seemingly you have no understanding (not misunderstanding) of context in which the term is being used. It is not an absolute term, but only makes sense in a particular context such as in the way I used it. In the context of this discussion a Moody 29 or a Fulmar is "modern" compared with other boats under consideration such as the Twister or Golden Hind even though they were all being built at the same time. That its what makes the difference and the difference is big enough to justify 167 discussion posts - even if many of them fail to recognise this and wander off into irrelevance.

You didn't use any context. You simply describe a 45 year old design as modern. It's clearly not.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

The modern era is more to do with materials than keel format. As a consequence, designers were free to design boats so that they sailed better….. running for shelter now

 

[doug748]

....... £20k to spend on a small coastal cruising boat which is what the OP is after.

In his fleeting appearances the OP has made it clear that is the last thing he wants.
.

 

[geem]

The modern era is more to do with materials than keel format. As a consequence, designers were free to design boats so that they sailed better….. running for shelter now

I agree. The fundamental swap from wood to grp allowed totally different hull shapes. A designers dream

 

[Concerto]

The modern era is more to do with materials than keel format. As a consequence, designers were free to design boats so that they sailed better….. running for shelter now

It also had no exact specification as how to use new materials. It was trial and error, but generally over built initially. As designs "modernised" different stresses and strains were found. In the case of the Fulmar, early hulls were too lightly built just aft of the keel. It can easily be reinforced, there is even advice about this on the WOA wiki page for the Fulmar. Other boats, especially twin keelers that were kept on drying moorings suffered either from hard sand or gloopy mud, both causing keel losses.

Later problems resulted from balsa cored glassfibre rotting from water entry. Foam core solved that problem, but also had problems when poorly fitted in topsides with one of the worst being the Hazzard 30.

Then having thinner hulls reinforced with a contra moulded rib made manufacturing more precise, but some moulded ribs have been dislodged after a grounding due to poor bonding.

The latest fashion of bonded hull windows is allowing crew members in larger boats to have more light below and being able to look out from the cabin. However there have been some failures of the bonding of the windows, but I expect this will increase over time.

I could easily quote other changes new materials have assisted in allowing designers to create boats that were physically impossible in decades gone by.

Occasionally designers try something that just does not work. The one that springs to mind was the idea that cars steer on the front wheels, so why not move the rudder forward? It was tried on a race boat, it was an absolute failure.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

The advent of the latest carbon materials has resulted in the largest change, arguably, talking of the physically impossible. Nobody expected to see 75ft boat fly. Nor 100 x 80ft boats that can sail around the world flying. I’m not quite sure where we can go from here.

 

[Stemar]

Occasionally designers try something that just does not work. The one that springs to mind was the idea that cars steer on the front wheels, so why not move the rudder forward? It was tried on a race boat, it was an absolute failure.

But if you don't try, you won't know if it works or not. That's the advantage of having racing teams with big budgets - they try stuff and reckon they're doing well if, out of a dozen tries, they get a couple that work well. The problem comes when something is tried at the consumer level; if it doesn't work, some poor sod is stuck with it.

 

[Dellquay13]

Oxford dictionary meaning of 'modern'
relating to the present or recent times as opposed to the remote past.

When considering if an example of an item is modern, should it be relative to the history of the item.
Given the long history of sailing, anything with a Bermudan rig could be called modern

We are talking technology invented soon after a human first noticed that the wind could blow floating objects around

 

[geem]

When considering if an example of an item is modern, it is relative to the history of the item.
Given the long history of sailing, anything with a Bermudan rig could be called modern

Of course, if taken in context. Context is key.

 

[Dellquay13]

Of course, if taken in context. Context is key.

Last weekend we visited El Galeon Andalucia before it left Wales for Spain.
I was struck how much it had in common with my 50year old yacht.
Like the GRP hull for one

 

[DoubleEnder]

I've raced those at a couple of corporate days from a yacht club, whose name i forget, vased on the IOW . Lovely jeel boats and i thought similar to the Burnham one designs.

That may have been Seaview. They have a keelboat called Mermaid