Fleming 58 video

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Btw, I also agree with your views on the Fleming 58.
There's no denying that she's a well built boat, but nowhere near an half acceptable value for money.
Besides (in reply to Deleted User), I disagree that she feels like a 65' boat: imho, her interiors don't feel as spacious as in your F630 - which in fact is longer and wider.
Not to mention the e/r and lazarette, unacceptably cramped for that type of boat.
All imho, as always.

Thanks but I can't agree with that. Yes some accommodation spaces on the F58 are smaller, the saloon in particular, but on the other hand it has a proper pilot house which, of course, my boat doesnt have. The F58 does at least have a separate lazarette whereas my F630 doesnt and as for headroom in the engine bay that is a deliberate design choice made by Fleming to keep the overall height of the boat low for stability reasons

Its horses for courses. If you were to choose a boat for cruising around the Med, then probably a Ferretti style boat is a better choice but if you wanted a boat for crossing Biscay and cruising around the west coast of Ireland, then you'd probably choose the Fleming. As for the price of the Fleming, well I suppose you have to say that she is correctly priced for the market given the fact that they can sell everyone they can make. Also I dont know whether you've noticed but other 60-65ft SD boats are well north of £2m now and many are not built nearly as well as the Fleming

Yes I agree with your comment on stabilised P boats at D speeds. I was never one of those that claimed that a stabilised P boat was as comfortable as a stabilised D boat at D speeds. If you want a boat to do extended cruising at D speeds then a D boat built for that purpose will always be more comfortable

 

[MapisM]

Thanks but I can't agree with that.

Well, I can't pretend to know a F630 better than yourself of course, but I'd happily bet that anyone entering your boat would feel that she's larger than the Flem 58 - which btw is confirmed by the numbers, because she's 20cm beamier, and as you know beam matters more than length (which is higher in the F630, anyway), for interior spaces. Not to mention that (at a guess) the Fleming uses more of that for the walkarounds.
Layout is another matter of course, and I also love the separate p/h arrangement typical of any D/SD boats, but that alone doesn't make the boat any larger.

Ref. the low headroom in technical areas, I'm well aware that Fleming pretends it's meant to lower CoG and in turn improve stability, but sorry, I never bought that.
There are Nordies of similar size which are way taller, and they aren't known for capsizing regularly...
Besides, it's not only the e/r headroom that is (imho) unacceptable in a 60' boat meant for long distance cruising.
I have a distinct memory of having to crawl through an awfully tight access path and door, to enter the 58 e/r.
Though that was one of their earlier models and they might have improved that by now, 'dunno.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Well, I can't pretend to know a F630 better than yourself of course, but I'd happily bet that anyone entering your boat would feel that she's larger than the Flem 58 - which btw is confirmed by the numbers, because she's 20cm beamier, and as you know beam matters more than length (which is higher in the F630, anyway), for interior spaces. Not to mention that (at a guess) the Fleming uses more of that for the walkarounds.
Layout is another matter of course, and I also love the separate p/h arrangement typical of any D/SD boats, but that alone doesn't make the boat any larger.

I'm not saying the F58 is any larger than my boat. I'm just saying that the available space is used in a different way. A pilot house and wide sheltered walkways is one way of using that space and a big saloon is another way

Ref. the low headroom in technical areas, I'm well aware that Fleming pretends it's meant to lower CoG and in turn improve stability, but sorry, I never bought that.
There are Nordies of similar size which are way taller, and they aren't known for capsizing regularly..

.
I wish I had taken photos when I visited the Dusseldorf boat show a few years ago and seen the exposed hulls of a Fleming and Nordhavn side by side. The difference was amazing. The Fleming had a relatively shallow draft hull, albeit with a keel, with hard chines aft. The Nordhavn had a much deeper entirely round bilged hull with a huge volume of hull underwater. For me, that taught me the difference between a SD hull, even a good one like the Fleming, and a true D hull like the Nordhavn and you simply cannot compare the two. The Fleming has its relatively shallow, hard chine hull because it is designed to exceed its D speed and plane and given that, in order to maximise stability, of course the superstructure has to be kept as low as possible. The Nordhavn, on the other hand, with no requirement to exceed its max D speed and with its huge underwater volume (and ballast), can afford to have a huge superstructure without over compromising stability. The 2 boats are simply different animals

 

[MapisM]

The 2 boats are simply different animals

Agreed, let's forget my comparison.
But even accepting that there can be a bit of compromise between CoG/stability and headroom, the e/r accessibility is still well under par, for that type/size of boat.
There are in fact direct Fleming competitors which are MUCH better in that respect - GB and ORY spring to mind.
I always thought that what Tony was REALLY after with his low profile design was a sleek appearance of his boats.
And in this respect, there's no denying that he was spot on - for the type of boat, anyway.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I always thought that what Tony was REALLY after with his low profile design was a sleek appearance of his boats.
And in this respect, there's no denying that he was spot on - for the type of boat, anyway.

Maybe, maybe not but lets not forget that the 58 is a 'clean sheet of paper' design so the decision not to go for a full standing height engine room would not have been forced on them by the constraints of, say, using an existing hull. Having met Tony Fleming a couple of times I find it hard to believe that appearance was uppermost in his mind. After all, if it was, maybe he wouldnt have produced such a traditional looking boat in the first place

Regarding the ORYs, I do think they look top heavy especially for their relatively narrow beam and that the Flemings look more in proportion. Any comment on that point with regard to the ORYs given that you have experience of having cruised on them?

 

[MapisM]

Having met Tony Fleming a couple of times I find it hard to believe that appearance was uppermost in his mind. After all, if it was, maybe he wouldnt have produced such a traditional looking boat in the first place

LOL, yeah, even if I never met him I'm aware that TF has a reputation for no-nonsense in boatbuilding.
Otoh, the 55/58 is imho the most sleek and elegant boat in its segment, and that doesn't happen by coincidence...

Ref. ORYs, my cruising experience with a couple of their boats doesn't put me in any better position to judge them from an aesthetical standpoint, I reckon.
Generally speaking, in comparison with any Fleming model, I can see why they can appear top heavy.
Though in a sense it might be more appropriate to say that Flemings are top light...
...also if compared to most modern planing f/b boats, btw.

Anyway, just fwiw, S could safely boil water for pasta during an ORY 70 delivery in a F5+ sea, without any panholders on the cooktop.
Now, I'm sure that she could have done the same also on a similar size Fleming, but it's hard to imagine how her stability could have been much better than that...

 

[MedMilo]

Actually the Fleming 58 is available with a full beam midships master cabin. Thats its main USP over the Fleming 55

Ah okay, I didn't know that, good! They're certainly great boats but the fact that both the 58 (actually 65) and the 65 (actually 70, I think) only offer three cabins still seems a bit limiting to me. We have five double cabins on our Sq 65, two doubles, three twins and four heads (if you include crew cabin) and importantly this allows us to accommodate two families which we often do in the summer!

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Ah okay, I didn't know that, good! They're certainly great boats but the fact that both the 58 (actually 65) and the 65 (actually 70, I think) only offer three cabins still seems a bit limiting to me. We have five double cabins on our Sq 65, two doubles, three twins and four heads (if you include crew cabin) and importantly this allows us to accommodate two families which we often do in the summer!

Yup true but with a family you wouldnt be doing the kind of extended cruising that would warrant buying a Fleming. With family onboard we all tend to do short distance cruising in settled weather for which a gin palace type boat is better suited. I believe that a Fleming would tend to be what the trade calls a "coffin boat" ie the last boat you buy before the box

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Anyway, just fwiw, S could safely boil water for pasta during an ORY 70 delivery in a F5+ sea, without any panholders on the cooktop.
Now, I'm sure that she could have done the same also on a similar size Fleming, but it's hard to imagine how her stability could have been much better than that...

Was that a beam sea?

 

[Magnum]

Just showed Mrs Magnum the video in the opening post. We won't be buying a Fleming

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Just showed Mrs Magnum the video in the opening post. We won't be buying a Fleming

Definitely a modern girl then

 

[EricJ]

Just showed Mrs Magnum the video in the opening post. We won't be buying a Fleming

LOL, I can see the point, especially if you compare it to the interior of your new ship in built. Princess is doing a great job with interiors; they made big steps ahead compared to let's say 10 years ago.
The exterior of the Fleming remains very nice though.

 

[Magnum]

I do like the Fleming, but dare I say it's more of a man's boat.

 

[MapisM]

Was that a beam sea?

'twas a long passage (3 days non-stop), with all sort of seas, anywhere between F4 and F7.
IIRC, it was mostly head/bow sea that night, though I only remember it because most folks onboard commented that it was impressive to have water boiling in those conditions, rather than for the waves direction.
Anyway, a beam sea doesn't really make thing worse on these boats, particularly when equipped with oversized upgraded stabs, as that 70' is.
And coming to think of it, also when I've been onboard a 65' with the standard (non-STAR) fins in the US, together with the ABT engineer which was testing them, it was impressive to see how stable the boat remained even while that guy simulated on his connected PC a fault in one fin, leaving it center locked.
If it weren't for the display showing a larger movement of the only active fin, you could hardly tell the difference...

 

[MapisM]

LOL, I can see the point, especially if you compare it to the interior of your new ship in built. Princess is doing a great job with interiors; they made big steps ahead compared to let's say 10 years ago.
The exterior of the Fleming remains very nice though.

I'm not sure that it's only a matter of interiors.
In my experience, for most women the external look is also very important, because that's what everybody can immediately see.
And in this respect, let's face it: the most elegant D or SD vessels (even the more innovative ones, like Magellanos etc.) still can't surpass the modern and sleek appearance of P boats...

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I do like the Fleming, but dare I say it's more of a man's boat.

Not sure youre allowed to say that these days

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

'twas a long passage (3 days non-stop), with all sort of seas, anywhere between F4 and F7.
IIRC, it was mostly head/bow sea that night, though I only remember it because most folks onboard commented that it was impressive to have water boiling in those conditions, rather than for the waves direction.
Anyway, a beam sea doesn't really make thing worse on these boats, particularly when equipped with oversized upgraded stabs, as that 70' is.
And coming to think of it, also when I've been onboard a 65' with the standard (non-STAR) fins in the US, together with the ABT engineer which was testing them, it was impressive to see how stable the boat remained even while that guy simulated on his connected PC a fault in one fin, leaving it center locked.
If it weren't for the display showing a larger movement of the only active fin, you could hardly tell the difference...

Thats interesting and thanks for that. As you know I am thinking about our next boat and I am wrestling with the P v SD v D conundrum so any bits of information like that are useful

 

[MapisM]

Yup, I know.
And as you also know, strictly from a technical viewpoint, imho going for a non-P boat is a no-brainer, for anyone who doesn't really need the 20 kts cruising speed.

Otoh, the killer factor, particularly for used boats, is value for money.
Even if I just criticized Fleming boats in some respects, I have no problem to admit that I would have been happy to pay 30% more or so for a Flem 55 in conditions comparable to the DP 56 which I eventually bought - even if the size difference is actually larger than the 55 vs. 56 suggests.
Maybe I could have consider paying up to 50% more.
But double, if not triple?!? That's beyond a joke, particularly when you consider that the build quality of the Flem is just marginally better than the DP (at best - if not a bit worse, in some respects).
So, eventually I decided that the MUCH higher VFM of used P boats was a more than good enough reason to accept some compromises on the ride quality - also because I'm not planning to use the boat for very long passages, let alone ocean crossing: whenever cruising becomes boring at best and scaring at worst, I'm not interested anymore.

Btw, it's worth mentioning that this peculiar market situation is already changing: decent used P boats are getting harder to find, also because, after the world crisis, the number of new builds dropped like a lead balloon.
As a result, whenever you see some ridiculously low priced P boat advertised nowadays, you can save yourself the time to go see them, because they are almost surely not worth touching with a barge pole.
But strictly in terms of VFM, used P boats are still a league ahead of any good D/SD vessel.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Otoh, the killer factor, particularly for used boats, is value for money.

Yup that is the crux of the matter. For the price of a 5-7yr old 60' SD or D boat you can get a 2-4yr old 75' P boat and thats exactly the issue I have. Do you buy a smaller SD or D boat which is perhaps more suited to extended cruising or do you buy a larger, more comfortable P boat and put up with its arguably inferior seakeeping? And are there P boats out there with the seakeeping ability approaching that of a good SD boat? Dont know the answer to that question. I wish somebody could tell me!

 

[MapisM]

Well, my personal short answer to your last question, based on my experience, is no - period.
Otoh, the following question is bound to be ...is the seakeeping difference worth the cost difference, for the usage I have in mind?
And my own answer is also no.
So, if given a choice between the two alternative in your example (and assuming that the higher cost and hassle of maintaining a much larger boat is not an issue - mind, it would be for me, particularly since I'd rather not have any crew), I'd go for the latter in a heartbeat.
But YMMV, obviously!