Magnum
RIP
I used to yearn for a good SD boat but modern stabilisation systems have changed that. Temper that with substantially more spacious and luxurious living spaces and its even harder to justify the SD option.
Fleming 58 video
- Thread starter EricJ
- Start date
Kawasaki
Well-known member
'Dear Moderaters, can You please Ban EricJ from the Forai for Posting Boat Porn, thank you, regards kawasaki'!
EricJ
Active member
Haha, watch out for YouTube in general I would say...
Just makes me think that the forum was already there before YouTube. I have been following this forum on and off since 2001 (only registered last year) and in those days I watched low res videos on Fairline's website of Sq55 and alike. Different times....
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Deleted User YDKXO
Guest
But which would you rather be in with half a gale blowing on a long crossing of Biscay? A good planing boat with stabs or a good SD or D boat with stabs?
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Deleted User YDKXO
Guest
Magnum
RIP
MapisM
Well-known member
A man after my own heart! :encouragement:
I must disagree with your generalization on "more spacious and luxurious living spaces" of P vs. SD boats, though.
You must have in mind the usual Taiwanese lot (Fleming, GB, etc.), I suppose.
But if Ms. Magnum would have an opportunity to see the interiors of a Sanlorenzo SD92, you'd better be prepared to buy one PDQ, regardless of all the objections that the "SL suck" chap might raise...
I must disagree with your generalization on "more spacious and luxurious living spaces" of P vs. SD boats, though.
You must have in mind the usual Taiwanese lot (Fleming, GB, etc.), I suppose.
But if Ms. Magnum would have an opportunity to see the interiors of a Sanlorenzo SD92, you'd better be prepared to buy one PDQ, regardless of all the objections that the "SL suck" chap might raise...
Portofino
Well-known member
I,am with Magnum on this ,wider choice ,they look sleeker arguably better VFM particularly used 75 ft P boats .
I can see stabs becoming more common .
20 + knots in a boats that can do 30 + in the Med for recreational use is a nice number .
I think I would be board chugging round in the season @9-12 knots or what ever essentially dawn till dusk .
By all accounts 4 hrs is a good rule of thumb before a stop n swim etc .You could do expeditions now and again ,but it’s suppose to be a holiday / liesure .
As far as weather , again plan the trip especially easier with the tech available .No problem waiting an extra day for things to improve either .
As far as the SL SD 92 is concerned , then we are moving into a different size category in my book .
Not only purchase price ( compared to a P 75 ish ) but the Spector of hiring crew .With crew and a bigger boat ,which also looks the part in the Med - style wise the SD 92 has it in spades that the Taiwan lots does not have imho.
Ithink you have to be comfortable with the external appearance in the Med scene .Bit like cars *, there’s an eliment of form over function,or is with boats function over form ? I should know with my choice it’s clearly towards one end of the spectrum.
Then that alters the usage profile ,spending a lot of time even @ night running can be factored in .
I think there would be a change of use ,but even so for me and crew ( with a SD 92 ) we would still plan arround the weather .
Even so I would have that lingering doubt after day after day ( and occasionally a pm run ) of “ what if “ we could go just a bit faster 1/2 the journey time etc — and there’s nowt you can do about it .
Mrs PF ,s a bit fussy on looks ,stuff like GB and Nordhaven are poo poo ed .
As a bloke I think we all have some sort of lingering Robin Knox Johnson , expidition / adventure ,carry on come what may - thoughts in the back of our minds .Anchoring in some god forsaken bay off Green land watching whales at one with nature etc .The rest of the family don,t !
* try floating the idea of getting a Lancia Intergrale on your wife
I can see stabs becoming more common .
20 + knots in a boats that can do 30 + in the Med for recreational use is a nice number .
I think I would be board chugging round in the season @9-12 knots or what ever essentially dawn till dusk .
By all accounts 4 hrs is a good rule of thumb before a stop n swim etc .You could do expeditions now and again ,but it’s suppose to be a holiday / liesure .
As far as weather , again plan the trip especially easier with the tech available .No problem waiting an extra day for things to improve either .
As far as the SL SD 92 is concerned , then we are moving into a different size category in my book .
Not only purchase price ( compared to a P 75 ish ) but the Spector of hiring crew .With crew and a bigger boat ,which also looks the part in the Med - style wise the SD 92 has it in spades that the Taiwan lots does not have imho.
Ithink you have to be comfortable with the external appearance in the Med scene .Bit like cars *, there’s an eliment of form over function,or is with boats function over form ? I should know with my choice it’s clearly towards one end of the spectrum
.Then that alters the usage profile ,spending a lot of time even @ night running can be factored in .
I think there would be a change of use ,but even so for me and crew ( with a SD 92 ) we would still plan arround the weather .
Even so I would have that lingering doubt after day after day ( and occasionally a pm run ) of “ what if “ we could go just a bit faster 1/2 the journey time etc — and there’s nowt you can do about it .
Mrs PF ,s a bit fussy on looks ,stuff like GB and Nordhaven are poo poo ed .
As a bloke I think we all have some sort of lingering Robin Knox Johnson , expidition / adventure ,carry on come what may - thoughts in the back of our minds .Anchoring in some god forsaken bay off Green land watching whales at one with nature etc .The rest of the family don,t !
* try floating the idea of getting a Lancia Intergrale on your wife
jfm
Well-known member
No contest in those conditions but these days I'd just wait for a calm day
I completely agree magnum only I'd go a step further: P boats are MUCH better stabilised than D boats so you need only wait for calm day if you're facing a head sea. I.e. On 50%+ of rough days you're better in the P boat so far as sea keeping is concerned.
That assumes fins not gyros, but obviously gyros are useless underway in big seas so you just wouldn't spec them.
And in a head sea you're better not doing the trip in either boat. Stay indoors, and as you say the living spaces are nicer in the P boat.
Plus, most of the fun on a boat is when you're stopped.
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Kawasaki
Well-known member
Yes, different times as you say but crikey, I didn't find this place until 2004, ish. I watch too much You Tube on the subject of boat porn as a Sad Motorboat Anorak I am. Well, so Her Indoors says, plus I can't argue!! Yesterday I boarded a 44 ft Swift Benny Trawler. It was not for sale but the owner let us aboard for a 'Viewing' Not a 'Fleming' buy any means but I would like One. Any for sale anybody?
TwoHooter
Well-known member
Nobody has mentioned fuel costs. In our D boat we ignore fuel costs, they are irrelevant. We burn 10 litres per hour (1.4 litres per NM). A typical summer's day for us might be 8 hours between anchorages (engine on to engine off) about 60 NM depending on how much faffing around there is at each end, say 80 litres. Cost of fuel at current UK 60:40 price would be about £75 for a day's cruise. I know a lot of people would say it's daft to spend 8 hours to cover 60 miles. But is it daft when those miles are coastal cruising in nice weather with beautiful scenery and wildlife? We could never afford to add the cost of a big P boat's fuel to all our other boating costs. We would end up sitting in a marina somewhere, scared to start the engines. Flemings are bought by people with deep pockets, so perhaps the issue isn't so relevant for this thread, but if the conversation is about D v SD v P then I say your answer to what's best will partly depend on your budget for fuel.
And then there's range. Nobody has mentioned range. One of the virtues of the Fleming is that if you slow down you can go a long way. In a full D boat like ours you can go a heck of a long way, 2,500 NM. We filled up in March 2016 and have cruised almost continuously and have run the generator and the furnace a lot and we've still got enough fuel to go 600 miles.
I love boat gossip. There are no right answers, only our own answers.
And then there's range. Nobody has mentioned range. One of the virtues of the Fleming is that if you slow down you can go a long way. In a full D boat like ours you can go a heck of a long way, 2,500 NM. We filled up in March 2016 and have cruised almost continuously and have run the generator and the furnace a lot and we've still got enough fuel to go 600 miles.
I love boat gossip. There are no right answers, only our own answers.
jfm
Well-known member
Fleming don't have a patent on slowing down - that's a virtue of any P boat. Indeed, the fleming basically has a P-esque hull. Take a production 42 foot Princess/Fairline and run it at your Nordie's D speed, say 6kts (?) and you'll get similar mileage to your Nordie. My P boat with full tanks shows 3000nm+ on the rangeometer at 6 knots
TwoHooter
Well-known member
Actually 7kts on our boat, but I take the point.
MapisM
Well-known member
Agreed, but that's not because 1.4 L/Nm is good.
I mean, it is of course, and I was quite happy to burn a still very decent 2 L/Nm with my old D boat, considering that she was larger than yours at 53 feet, twin engined, and mostly used at 8+ kts.
But now that I downgraded to a plastic boat which burns 6 L/Nm at P speed, I still consider fuel costs almost irrelevant, in the grand scheme.
Trust me, I did the math: as I mentioned earlier, I should have forked out three times the amount I spent for her, to buy a Nordie or Fleming of similar size/age.
And aside from being a silly difference in terms of absolute value, I should have cruised for another hundred of years or so, to go anywhere near a break-even with fuel savings alone, without even considering that by slowing down I can get back to just about 2 L/Nm, as I was used to.
Anyone willing to cross oceans would have excellent reasons to disagree with this reasoning, of course.
But life's too short for that, imho. If there's one thing that I hate of jetliners, is that they are too slow...
Bouba
Well-known member
It’s not maths or even man maths that make you want a Nordic or Selene or Fleming. After all I can pay ten times as much for a car and have one tenth of the boot space as my car. It’s love. That love for shipy looks, the love of system redundancy, the feeling that if I hit an iceberg it’s the iceberg that’s going down. Would I pay the premium for it? Yes, if I had the money so for now I can just look at the video and drool
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Deleted User YDKXO
Guest
Yup its a well trotted out received wisdom that D boats like Nordhavns are more fuel efficient than P boats at D speeds but its not necessarily true. Yes the Nordhavn is obviously specifically designed for D speeds but that doesnt necessarily make it more fuel efficient. The fact is that D boats are usually considerably heavier than a P boat of equivalent length and have a lot more hull and hence wetted surface in the water. To give an example, my 63ft P boat does about 2nmpg @ 7kts. A Nordhavn 60 wouldnt get anywhere near that at the same speed, the main reason being that the Nordhavn 60 weighs 63t whereas my boat 'only' weighs 39t
People generally buy D boats for 2 reasons. First in extreme sea conditions you would choose to be in a D boat like the Nordhavn every time. And second they carry a lot more fuel than a P boat so even despite the inferior fuel consumption, they have a much longer range. My boat carries 3700l of fuel whereas the Nordhavn 60 carries more than double that at 8500l
MapisM
Well-known member
Yeah, I know. You are saying that to someone who years ago jumped on a plane to the US of A, just to look at (and hopefully buy) a Cape Horn built by Theriault in Nova Scotia.
The sort of thing that makes Flemings and even Nordhavns lightly built coastal boats, in comparison: double steel hull, self-righting, azipod driven... More akin to an offshore rescue tug than a pleasure boat.
Back then, I thought that the perspective of going places by boat - extreme latitudes included - could be attractive.
The idea didn't materialize for several reasons, and in hindsight, I'm glad it didn't.
As I said, life's short enough - why waste it chasing icebergs?
MapisM
Well-known member
Agreed, but the funny thing is that for most D boaters neither of these theoretical reasons are reflected in the actual boat usage.
I don't think I'd be far off the mark if I should estimate that less than 10% of boaters who opted for go-anywhere vessels ever used them in a way that would have been clearly outside the capabilities of any average P boat.
Portofino
Well-known member
Can,t see how a pair of 32 L v 12,s will do “ 10L / hr “ @ 6 knots or your first click ?
Range is just a factor of fill up points , in the Med Marinas are never that far away in absolute terms for a P boater to consider D or range in multiples of 1000 ,s
1st click for me is 7-8 knots 600 rpm 30 L / hr ,but I find 825 rpm gives 9.something ?This burns 40 L / hr
Which costs more than 10 L / hour by a factor of 4 .
I think that’s the point Twohooter is making running costs to get from A to B on a typical day out ?
MikesF,s v 12 - 24 L ........your 32 L , and even my 12 L cannot get any where near 10 L / h cruising about in the sun .
Of course in reality we all spend a proportion of time @ P , for me 27 knots is 180 L / h or 200 @ 30 ish knots .
You guys — Deleted User double or JFM treble ? ( in the area of 200 rpm South of 2000 rpm )
6-800 L is an awful lot of boating for Twohooter in his Nordie @ 10 L / hr
Sorry MapishM— forgot size of your engines ?
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Deleted User YDKXO
Guest
Correct. If you look at a Fleming or indeed any so called trawler SD yacht, they have a hard chine shaped hull aft just like a P boat. The only differences tend to be that they have a substantial keel and a sharper bow forward. Personally I think SD is a bit of a misnomer. If a boat exceeds its max hull speed, its planing so any boat that can do that is a planing boat. SD boats are just P boats that can't plane as well as a standard P boat either because the hull doesnt have sufficient lift or the boat hasnt got enough power. Thats not to say that SD boats arent good sea boats. They are often very good sea boats but thats not because their hulls are significantly different to P hulls