Flaming Flares

[Rigger Mortice]

The H'n'S criticism was directed at the misguided people who say flares should be banned etc. As for your other views, I've 'done my bit' on this thread, so, yeah whatevs.

Has anyone said, or even suggested, they should be banned?

 

[Bru]

Yes that guy was horribly injured, he had to have his guts spliced as I remember, poor bloke, but it isn't a winning argument to stop using parachute flares.

It's a pretty winning argument as far as I'm concerned if there's any viable alternative! And I believe that these days there is just that

Lots more people (orders of magnitude) have been saved than injured by parachute flares.

That is undoubtedly true but how many of those people would have been saved had they used an alternative (and potentially IMO more effective) method of signalling their distress?

They are a vital part of the distress arsenal, let's not fan the flames, all the best Jerry

I would suggest that they are no longer vital, and arguably they are even obsolete

Realistically, I can carry at the most four parachute flares, in reality I'm likely to carry the standard set of two that comes as part of the coastal flare pack

Lets be generous and say that gives me a capability to signal my distress for TWO minutes. Yep, two minutes. In reality nearer a minute and a half in fact

And the range at night isn't bad, maybe 25 miles, but in daytime it's less than 8 miles. And that's in good conditions. In fog or low cloud it could be drastically reduced

So I fire off a parachute flare and hope like hell that there's somebody looking my way within visual range in the next minute. Just in case I follow standard advice and fire a second one a few minutes later. That's it, I've shot all the shots in my locker. DId somebody see it? If they did, did they do something about it? If they did, can the emergency services find me based on the information received?

When it was the only option available it was the best we could do but compared to what modern technology can do for us it's frankly p!ssing in the wind!

The modern reality in coastal waters is to hit the distress button on the DSC VHF which transmits a digital distress alert complete with accurate position fix and optionally nature of distress which will be received and cause an alarm which must be acknowledged on every VHF receiver within range - that's going to be 10 miles or more to other vessels and 25 to 30 miles or more to shore stations

Instantly, the coastguard and every (responsible) vessel in the area is going to know that you're in trouble and exactly where you are. Doesn't matter if the officer on watch was marking up charts and the lookout had gone to the heads, doesn't need granny walking her dog along the beach and getting curious about the red firework. Instant, accurate and effective

Outside of VHF range of the shore, the VHF DSC distress alert still has a function to alert other vessels in the vicinity but the EPIRB/PLB comes into its own. Either automatically or manually activated, up it pops on a screen in Falmouth with the who you are and where you are. Help will be on its way toot sweet

Oh and the VHF DSC and EPIRB/PLB will go on working and sending a distress signal until the batteries are flat. At least 24 hours, 48 hours for an EPIRB or one of the new big PLBs

Aha you'll cry, I can hear you now, what if all the electrics fails? Or the mast falls down? Etc. etc.

C'mon! Realistically what are the actual chances of every single piece of electrical equipment dying? Virtually zero. If your luck is SO bad that even the battery powered gear like your PLB/EPIRB has fried then I'm afraid your goose is probably cooked! To be serious, the potential for it to happen is vanishingly small and comparable to the likelihood of all of your flares malfunctioning - it COULD happen but if your going to be that paranoid you'd probably be wise to stay in bed!

Mast down? Surely you have a backup VHF antenna on the stern rail and/or a hand held in the grab bag?

Main battery failure takes out the fixed VHF? Back to the hand held in the grab bag and/or the EPIRB/PLB

Final approach signally of exact location once the cavalry is within visual range? Odeo (or similar) laser flare

The one function the technology can't, yet (and it's hard to see how it could), replicate if not supercede is the daylight visual signal and wind strength and direction indicating capability of a smoke flare. The paraffin parrot pilots seem to manage well enough when they haven't got orange smoke from the target so I'm not going to worry about that. The "here I am, I'm the casualty" indication though is a matter to ponder however we're back to the laser flare again as it has a 3 mile plus visual range in daylight - surely enough to guide the SAR asset(s) to your precise location given that they are working off a GPS fix that's going to put them within a few hundred yards of you at worst

Let's be sensible about the Health and Safety thing too

H&S, away from the sensationalist newspaper arguments and the rantings of fools, is all about recognising and mitigating risk. Firing hand held pyrotechnics is risky. Simple as. Doing it for the very first time when you are cold, wet, scared out of your knickers and about to die? Takes it from risky to downright dangerous.

But with no alternative it was (is if you insist) a risk that has to be taken so you do what you can to mitigate it. You made sure you only carried in date flares - out of date flares have a higher and avoidable risk of failure. You briefed and if possible trained every member of your crew on the use of flares. You carried a stout glove in the flare container etc.

Arguably, and I would so argue, that is now a risk which can be eliminated rather than mitigated

And finally lets look at cost - although ideally cost would not enter into a safety equation in the real world it does

At a minimum (realistically) I would be purchasing a Coastal Flare Pack every three years at a cost of £99. Ideally I'd go for the offshore pack for double the bang for double the bucks - and I'd certainly need to go for that if I wanted anything even approaching the capability of the technical solutions

So compared to around £250 for a PLB, a bit under £200 for a hand held DSC VHF and £120 for a laser flare (all of which have at least a six year lifespan) the pyro flares work out cheaper but not a LOT cheaper

Plus by ditching pyros I don't have the hassle of trying to dispose of the old ones

I certainly don't think pyro flares should be or will be banned and I will still have some (in the liferaft) but I won't be purchasing and carrying flare packs again

 

[blackbeard]

........As for rescues initiated by parachute flares there have been many. I have attended two such incidents personally.

Thanks for that. Can you give more details?
What I am looking for is instances where:
rescue resulting in a saving of life was initiated by a parachute flare, where;
other means of signally distress (for instance, radio MAYDAY, GMDSS, PLB, EPIRB, mobile 'phone (!)) would not have initiated the rescue.
In other words, a reason why I should carry these relatively expensive and liable-to-time-expiry (and, some say, dangerous) fireworks, rather than spending my money on some other item of safety kit.

Specifically parachute flares; I already carry pin-point hand-held reds and a smoke.

 

[JumbleDuck]

C'mon! Realistically what are the actual chances of every single piece of electrical equipment dying?

In a situation so bad that you're sending a Mayday or in normal sailing?

 

[Tidewaiter2]

Originally Posted by Erbas
C'mon! Realistically what are the actual chances of every single piece of electrical equipment dying?
Jumble duck
In a situation so bad that you're sending a Mayday or in normal sailing?

S**t can happen at any time to anyone;
Such as a lightning strike very early in the thunderstorm cell with torrential rain which broke over us we sailed into on a night entrance to the estuary where Borkum lies last May.
Came pdq low from landward, unseen against the land and islands, so hit us almost without any warning- zero vis kept our hands full dodging shipping and blind nav(first time in there), so no chance for h/h gps, vhf, etc to go in the oven.
I was soaked right through in seconds at the helm-a strike would have fried me, but SWMBO would have had a 'dark' boat and a bbq stiff to d/w- if hopefully the flares would not have been cooked off in their stowage by the strike- but other friends who have been actually been hit say they don't.

 

[Bru]

In a situation so bad that you're sending a Mayday or in normal sailing?

A mayday situation obviously

S**t can happen at any time to anyone;
Such as a lightning strike very early in the thunderstorm cell with torrential rain which broke over us we sailed into on a night entrance to the estuary where Borkum lies last May.
Came pdq low from landward, unseen against the land and islands, so hit us almost without any warning- zero vis kept our hands full dodging shipping and blind nav(first time in there), so no chance for h/h gps, vhf, etc to go in the oven.
I was soaked right through in seconds at the helm-a strike would have fried me, but SWMBO would have had a 'dark' boat and a bbq stiff to d/w- if hopefully the flares would not have been cooked off in their stowage by the strike- but other friends who have been actually been hit say they don't.

And did this take out equipment such as PLBs, EPIRBs and hand held VHFs that were not switched on at the time?

I'm NOT saying it can't happen. Yes, it can. S**t, as you say, can indeed happen any time to anyone. My argument, and my decision, is based upon having been able to find no verifiable reference (until now?) of a total and catastrophic loss of every single piece of electrical/electronic signalling equipment on a yacht compared to a number of references to flare failures (plus all the other considerations)

 

[MinorSwing]

Thanks for that. Can you give more details?
What I am looking for is instances where:
rescue resulting in a saving of life was initiated by a parachute flare, where;
other means of signally distress (for instance, radio MAYDAY, GMDSS, PLB, EPIRB, mobile 'phone (!)) would not have initiated the rescue.
In other words, a reason why I should carry these relatively expensive and liable-to-time-expiry (and, some say, dangerous) fireworks, rather than spending my money on some other item of safety kit.

Specifically parachute flares; I already carry pin-point hand-held reds and a smoke.

Ask the Coastguard. Personally, I don't care whether you carry flares or not.

 

[blackbeard]

Just checked with RYA web site, which I should have done earlier.
Quick précis as regards parachute flares:
"4 recommended if VHF DSC or PLB/EPIRB not carried....
EPIRB/DSC is now the accepted modern method for alerting".
(note the "if".)

Pinpoint hand-held reds, and smoke flares, are still recommended.

 

[MinorSwing]

Just checked with RYA web site, which I should have done earlier.
Quick précis as regards parachute flares:
"4 recommended if VHF DSC or PLB/EPIRB not carried....
EPIRB/DSC is now the accepted modern method for alerting".
(note the "if".)

Pinpoint hand-held reds, and smoke flares, are still recommended.

Surely most people are already aware of this. You seem to be having a one person argument.

 

[JumbleDuck]

A mayday situation obviously

I still like the idea of being able to signal to people watching and not just people with the appropriate electronic listening equipment. Maybe in more crowded waters I'd feel different.

 

[MinorSwing]

I still like the idea of being able to signal to people watching and not just people with the appropriate electronic listening equipment. Maybe in more crowded waters I'd feel different.

You are right. EPIRB, VHF etc. are the first option but parachute flares still have their place. So does black smoke from a fire made from diesel soaked rags, of course.

 

[rotrax]

It's a pretty winning argument as far as I'm concerned if there's any viable alternative! And I believe that these days there is just that



That is undoubtedly true but how many of those people would have been saved had they used an alternative (and potentially IMO more effective) method of signalling their distress?



I would suggest that they are no longer vital, and arguably they are even obsolete

Realistically, I can carry at the most four parachute flares, in reality I'm likely to carry the standard set of two that comes as part of the coastal flare pack

Lets be generous and say that gives me a capability to signal my distress for TWO minutes. Yep, two minutes. In reality nearer a minute and a half in fact

And the range at night isn't bad, maybe 25 miles, but in daytime it's less than 8 miles. And that's in good conditions. In fog or low cloud it could be drastically reduced

So I fire off a parachute flare and hope like hell that there's somebody looking my way within visual range in the next minute. Just in case I follow standard advice and fire a second one a few minutes later. That's it, I've shot all the shots in my locker. DId somebody see it? If they did, did they do something about it? If they did, can the emergency services find me based on the information received?

When it was the only option available it was the best we could do but compared to what modern technology can do for us it's frankly p!ssing in the wind!

The modern reality in coastal waters is to hit the distress button on the DSC VHF which transmits a digital distress alert complete with accurate position fix and optionally nature of distress which will be received and cause an alarm which must be acknowledged on every VHF receiver within range - that's going to be 10 miles or more to other vessels and 25 to 30 miles or more to shore stations

Instantly, the coastguard and every (responsible) vessel in the area is going to know that you're in trouble and exactly where you are. Doesn't matter if the officer on watch was marking up charts and the lookout had gone to the heads, doesn't need granny walking her dog along the beach and getting curious about the red firework. Instant, accurate and effective

Outside of VHF range of the shore, the VHF DSC distress alert still has a function to alert other vessels in the vicinity but the EPIRB/PLB comes into its own. Either automatically or manually activated, up it pops on a screen in Falmouth with the who you are and where you are. Help will be on its way toot sweet

Oh and the VHF DSC and EPIRB/PLB will go on working and sending a distress signal until the batteries are flat. At least 24 hours, 48 hours for an EPIRB or one of the new big PLBs

Aha you'll cry, I can hear you now, what if all the electrics fails? Or the mast falls down? Etc. etc.

C'mon! Realistically what are the actual chances of every single piece of electrical equipment dying? Virtually zero. If your luck is SO bad that even the battery powered gear like your PLB/EPIRB has fried then I'm afraid your goose is probably cooked! To be serious, the potential for it to happen is vanishingly small and comparable to the likelihood of all of your flares malfunctioning - it COULD happen but if your going to be that paranoid you'd probably be wise to stay in bed!

Mast down? Surely you have a backup VHF antenna on the stern rail and/or a hand held in the grab bag?

Main battery failure takes out the fixed VHF? Back to the hand held in the grab bag and/or the EPIRB/PLB

Final approach signally of exact location once the cavalry is within visual range? Odeo (or similar) laser flare

The one function the technology can't, yet (and it's hard to see how it could), replicate if not supercede is the daylight visual signal and wind strength and direction indicating capability of a smoke flare. The paraffin parrot pilots seem to manage well enough when they haven't got orange smoke from the target so I'm not going to worry about that. The "here I am, I'm the casualty" indication though is a matter to ponder however we're back to the laser flare again as it has a 3 mile plus visual range in daylight - surely enough to guide the SAR asset(s) to your precise location given that they are working off a GPS fix that's going to put them within a few hundred yards of you at worst

Let's be sensible about the Health and Safety thing too

H&S, away from the sensationalist newspaper arguments and the rantings of fools, is all about recognising and mitigating risk. Firing hand held pyrotechnics is risky. Simple as. Doing it for the very first time when you are cold, wet, scared out of your knickers and about to die? Takes it from risky to downright dangerous.

But with no alternative it was (is if you insist) a risk that has to be taken so you do what you can to mitigate it. You made sure you only carried in date flares - out of date flares have a higher and avoidable risk of failure. You briefed and if possible trained every member of your crew on the use of flares. You carried a stout glove in the flare container etc.

Arguably, and I would so argue, that is now a risk which can be eliminated rather than mitigated

And finally lets look at cost - although ideally cost would not enter into a safety equation in the real world it does

At a minimum (realistically) I would be purchasing a Coastal Flare Pack every three years at a cost of £99. Ideally I'd go for the offshore pack for double the bang for double the bucks - and I'd certainly need to go for that if I wanted anything even approaching the capability of the technical solutions

So compared to around £250 for a PLB, a bit under £200 for a hand held DSC VHF and £120 for a laser flare (all of which have at least a six year lifespan) the pyro flares work out cheaper but not a LOT cheaper

Plus by ditching pyros I don't have the hassle of trying to dispose of the old ones

I certainly don't think pyro flares should be or will be banned and I will still have some (in the liferaft) but I won't be purchasing and carrying flare packs again

Well said-my view exactly.

 

[blackbeard]

Surely most people are already aware of this. You seem to be having a one person argument.

You evidently haven't read all the posts on this thread.
I was rather hoping that, following your first post on this thread, you might have something useful to contribute.

 

[KellysEye]

>Well said-my view exactly.

What Erbas said is nonsense as are many of the posts. Flares still have an important roll to play and always will. As said earlier good luck if you don't carry them and have to be rescued.

 

[MinorSwing]

>Well said-my view exactly.

What Erbas said is nonsense as are many of the posts. Flares still have an important roll to play and always will. As said earlier good luck if you don't carry them and have to be rescued.

Quite right.

 

[Rigger Mortice]

What Erbas said is nonsense as are many of the posts. Flares still have an important roll to play and always will. As said earlier good luck if you don't carry them and have to be rescued.

I thought that his post was very well thought through, but I accept that not everyone will agree with his comments.

I wonder if the pro-flare side of the discussion would accept that, because we have other gizmos nowadays, flares are now less important than they used to be?

 

[MinorSwing]

I thought that his post was very well thought through, but I accept that not everyone will agree with his comments.

I wonder if the pro-flare side of the discussion would accept that, because we have other gizmos nowadays, flares are now less important than they used to be?

Not less important but not the first choice. They're as important as they ever were if the other options have failed.

 

[jerrytug]

>Well said-my view exactly.

What Erbas said is nonsense as are many of the posts. Flares still have an important roll to play and always will. As said earlier good luck if you don't carry them and have to be rescued.

That's right and if you don't carry them (in addition to DSC) and know how to use them you could be endangering your crew as well.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I wonder if the pro-flare side of the discussion would accept that, because we have other gizmos nowadays, flares are now less important than they used to be?

I'm not particularly pro-flare, but I would agree that there are other things to try as well now. If something goes horribly wrong I won't try A, wait a bit to see if anything happens, try B, wait a bit, try C, wait a bit and then ignite the tar barrel. I'll flip the switch, press the button and bang off a red or two as near simultaneously as I can manage. There is quite a lot of the West Coast of Scotland where CG radio coverage is poor, other boats are few and far between and lifeboats, when the EPIRB message is finally acted upon, are a fair distance away. I'd like to retain the possibility of attracting the attention of someone on shore and for the moment, that has to be pyrotechnic flares.

 

[jerrytug]

I thought that his post was very well thought through, but I accept that not everyone will agree with his comments.

I wonder if the pro-flare side of the discussion would accept that, because we have other gizmos nowadays, flares are now less important than they used to be?

No they are not less important, but we are lucky that there are more ways of calling for help these days.