Flaming Flares

[jerrytug]

I would hate anyone unfamiliar with flares to read this thread and get the wrong idea about flares,so:

Many more people have been helped by flares than injured by them, orders of magnitude more. (like vaccines)

There is no chance of them being banned.

There are many circumstances when flares can save lives when radio would not be applicable. This won't change in the future.

Some of the views presented above are batsh!t crazy, and most are eccentric minority opinions not shared by the majority of mariners.

Cheers Jerry.

 

[Rigger Mortice]

The RNLI has stopped using maroons (and I know they are not quite the same).
Technology changes. Flares are rapidly approaching the end of their time.

 

[JumbleDuck]

The RNLI has stopped using maroons (and I know they are not quite the same).

Nonetheless they have an entire webpage encouraging leisure sailors to carry flares.

Technology changes. Flares are rapidly approaching the end of their time.

I expect people will be saying that in fifty years.

 

[blackbeard]

>They have been known to kill people

Please could you let us know when and where people have been killed by flares?

.....

As already posted, there was a fatal event caused by a parachute flare at a Cowes week some years ago. AFAIK it was never established who fired it.
I understand there was also a fatality at a football match (can't remember which), also caused by a parachute flare which was fired horizontally, and in this case the person who fired it was identified and a manslaughter charge resulted. Don't know if he was convicted.
The thump on the chest which results from being struck by the projectile can cause a fatal heart attack.

Obviously both these events were gross misuse.

My point was about parachute flares; I have seen accounts of rescues where the rescuer was alerted by a flare but, so far as I can remember, the flares in question were hand held pinpoint reds. Does anyone know of rescues initiated by a rocket parachute flare, or for that matter, by a smoke?

I carry pin point reds and a smoke, and also have GMDSS and a PLB (406 MHz variety). The latter two, incidentally, work in fog. GMDSS has a much longer range than any flare (if mast is still up!) and the PLB will work anywhere in the world (including on land!), and both carry my identity and exact position. I remain unconvinced about rocket parachute flares.

 

[JumbleDuck]

My point was about parachute flares; I have seen accounts of rescues where the rescuer was alerted by a flare but, so far as I can remember, the flares in question were hand held pinpoint reds.

Years ago I used to lend my then boat to a Very Senior Coastguard. I asked his advice about flares, which was "Carry as many handheld reds as you can sensible manage. Keep your out-of-date ones for a few years. Don't bother with parachute flares."

 

[NUTMEG]

My feeling (fwiw) is that until the RNLI say stop carrying them I will continue to do so. A nice RNLI Seacheck person told me what to carry and that is an expert opinion I respect.

They are the chaps that most likely will rescue me if (when?) something nasty happens so to ignore their advice seems foolish.

Steve

 

[jerrytug]

My feeling (fwiw) is that until the RNLI say stop carrying them I will continue to do so. A nice RNLI Seacheck person told me what to carry and that is an expert opinion I respect.

They are the chaps that most likely will rescue me if (when?) something nasty happens so to ignore their advice seems foolish.



Steve

Exactly, and they NEVER WILL say,

" Stop carrying flares, because

A flare has been used as a weapon,
A flare failed to go off properly,
A laser maker says they're obsolete,
Somebody burned their finger,
They've been replaced by some combination of radio signals,
I've always been terrified of fireworks,"
Or any other bolleaux which may be spouted.

 

[Topcat47]

I understood the froggies next door got very upset if you are carried ANY out of date flares.

About twenty years ago, I had an occasion to ignite an old "orange smoke" flare on Salisbury plain, under controlled conditions. The resulting smoke was mostly muddy grey. We used a variety of smokes for the project I was working on and we were wondering how critical the "use by" dates were. Penny pinching meant we had a policy of using the older flares first, but we were left with a box of out of date oranges, some well beyond their use by date, and the Project manager didn't want to stump up for either new ones or the disposal of the old ones. After the test, suddenly the colour ceased to be of importance and we used them anyway.

 

[Anders_P42]

Hampshire Constabulary Marine Unit in conjunction with Ramora UK, one of the UK’s leading bomb disposal companies and the below marinas are offering "a distress flare amnesty" for private boat owners on select dates...

If anything says flares should be banned, this is it!

Anything with gunpowder stored in close proximity to 100's litres fuel and LPG gas bottle sounds a potential disaster. But I need to buy a coastal set soon, so which brand is best?

Hanson Ikaros
Pains Wessex

Anders

 

[MinorSwing]

As already posted, there was a fatal event caused by a parachute flare at a Cowes week some years ago. AFAIK it was never established who fired it.
I understand there was also a fatality at a football match (can't remember which), also caused by a parachute flare which was fired horizontally, and in this case the person who fired it was identified and a manslaughter charge resulted. Don't know if he was convicted.
The thump on the chest which results from being struck by the projectile can cause a fatal heart attack.

Obviously both these events were gross misuse.

My point was about parachute flares; I have seen accounts of rescues where the rescuer was alerted by a flare but, so far as I can remember, the flares in question were hand held pinpoint reds. Does anyone know of rescues initiated by a rocket parachute flare, or for that matter, by a smoke?

I carry pin point reds and a smoke, and also have GMDSS and a PLB (406 MHz variety). The latter two, incidentally, work in fog. GMDSS has a much longer range than any flare (if mast is still up!) and the PLB will work anywhere in the world (including on land!), and both carry my identity and exact position. I remain unconvinced about rocket parachute flares.

I was at the Cowes Fireworks when that flare was fired across the boats and someone was killed. It was a long time ago.
The idea of it giving you a thump on the chest and a possible heart attack is very naive. A parachute flare, if it hits you, will embed itself in your body and cause a great deal of damage as it burns.
As for rescues initiated by parachute flares there have been many. I have attended two such incidents personally.

 

[Martin_J]

Does anyone know of rescues initiated by a rocket parachute flare, or for that matter, by a smoke?

A few years back I was sailing Westbound about ten miles south of Plymouth. We noticed a hazy orange smoke towards the shore just to the East of Plymouth. Hard to see anything much but there was definitely an orange tint.

We called the coastguard and were later informed that the area was then checked out and a dive boat found.. Their engine had failed and their VHF and mobile phones were also not working (probably due to water/dampness on the RIB).. The orange smoke flares helped in their situation.

Another reason for smoke flares is an easy visual indication of local wind speed/direction to any rescue pilots.. Try doing that with a strobe light!

One way is to replace a couple of individual flares each year .. rather than being hit with the cost of a whole replacement set every four years..

 

[KellysEye]

I was thinking last night about what else happened when we were firing expired flares in Lagos apart from the exploding parachute flare. One parachute flare went off horizontally out to sea another went up to fifty feet then went horizontally inland toward the boatyard where many inflammable things are kept. At that point the marine police, who were supervising the event, stopped all firing of expired parachute flares. It also made me wonder that if the story about a flare being fired horizontally in Cowes is true then it's possible the flare wasn't held horizontally and just went off that way.

 

[Cantata]

I have fired many para flares, white ones used in Coastguard shore searches.
They are distinctly scary. We had it drummed into us how to do it 'safely' but it's one thing to do it on shore in a controlled situation, having been trained and reminded constantly, and, I imagine, completely different at sea in a small boat in a crisis.
Malfunction is also a distinct worry. Nobody has mentioned on here the sailing instructor and magazine contributor who only just survived an appalling accident involving a faulty handheld flare that 'backfired' and caused horrendous damage to internal organs.

 

[jerrytug]

Hi Cantata. I have also fired plenty of red parachute flares, they all worked. Not from a small boat in distress though.
"Scary" is subjective, personally I would substitute the word "FUN", but that's just me.
Malfunction may be a 'worry', but it's the very rare horror stories which stick in peoples' minds and skew their perception of risk, rather than the thousands of successful flare launches.
Yes that guy was horribly injured, he had to have his guts spliced as I remember, poor bloke, but it isn't a winning argument to stop using parachute flares.
Lots more people (orders of magnitude) have been saved than injured by parachute flares.
People have died ghastly deaths trapped in burning cars by their seatbelts, but seatbelts are a massive contribution to reducing road casualties.
I'm concerned (and fed up) with talk of banning flares, it's ridiculous to even suggest it.
They are a vital part of the distress arsenal, let's not fan the flames, all the best Jerry

 

[northwind]

There seems to be a pile of misinformation on flare disposal. My local council tip took mine happily.

 

[Cantata]

I actually agree with you, Jerry. I still have flares on my boat and probably always will. This thread is a heads-up for me to go through the flare box with SWMBO and try and drum the safety side of it into her as well, it's no good just me knowing the 'safe' way to use them.

 

[jerrytug]

Mine also, and the RNLI at Poole do as well. Don't know about anywhere else. I thought sailing was an activity for adventurous people, but it's surprising how many seem to have had so much health and safety pumped up their fundaments that it's now spurting out of their mouths! Jolly Jack Tars, Hearts of Oak, Minds of Risk Assessments..

 

[jerrytug]

I actually agree with you, Jerry. I still have flares on my boat and probably always will. This thread is a heads-up for me to go through the flare box with SWMBO and try and drum the safety side of it into her as well, it's no good just me knowing the 'safe' way to use them.

Good point, and if the authorities could be persuaded to allow it, any practical flare evening course, including letting them off, would be booked ahead for months I reckon. On many courses as you know, you sign your life away with a disclaimer anyway, and it would be well supervised.

 

[Rigger Mortice]

Mine also, and the RNLI at Poole do as well. Don't know about anywhere else. I thought sailing was an activity for adventurous people, but it's surprising how many seem to have had so much health and safety pumped up their fundaments that it's now spurting out of their mouths! Jolly Jack Tars, Hearts of Oak, Minds of Risk Assessments..

It's a bit bizarre to be bringing out bah-humbug H&S argument about a product which, by its very nature, only exists for safety purposes.

Yes, flares have a use. Yes, flares have the potential to be dangerous. Yes, they are slowly becoming redundant.
I suspect that in 10 or 20 years they will be consigned to history.

 

[jerrytug]

It's a bit bizarre to be bringing out bah-humbug H&S argument about a product which, by its very nature, only exists for safety purposes.

Yes, flares have a use. Yes, flares have the potential to be dangerous. Yes, they are slowly becoming redundant.
I suspect that in 10 or 20 years they will be consigned to history.

The H'n'S criticism was directed at the misguided people who say flares should be banned etc. As for your other views, I've 'done my bit' on this thread, so, yeah whatevs.