Bru
Well-known member
Care to explain why it's nonsense?
Flaming Flares
- Thread starter Gwylan
- Start date
Care to explain why it's nonsense?
duncan99210
Well-known member
For the sake of a few quid and a bit of space, flares are part of the spectrum of devices for initiating a distress call. They have the advantage of not requiring anything other than the Mark 1 eyeball to see. They are cheap and unaffected by the many problems the can degrade or kill electronic means of summoning help. They have the advantage of being universally understood by just about anybody afloat with no language barriers to get in the way.
We've got flares, (parachute, pin point and smoke) on board, along with 2 PLBs and a DSC VHF radio and I would not set sail without making sure that all were on board and in working condition. To my way of thinking the impact of pyrotechnics is far better than any of the battery powered laser devices so far available: they shout to anyone seeing them "I need help now" whereas the laser devices are, at best, just bright lights that might help the rescue services close in on you but will not grab the laymans attention.
I've used flares in a rescue situation where the lifeboat could not identify us from their radar or by using their direction finding equipment and so we resorted to the simple solution of a red flare. They were alongside in minutes after that. I doubt that a laser device would have worked in the situation we found ourselves in as the wave height was such that it was the loom of the flare above the waves that had been spotted, not the flare directly, which is what is needed for the laser devices.
We've got flares, (parachute, pin point and smoke) on board, along with 2 PLBs and a DSC VHF radio and I would not set sail without making sure that all were on board and in working condition. To my way of thinking the impact of pyrotechnics is far better than any of the battery powered laser devices so far available: they shout to anyone seeing them "I need help now" whereas the laser devices are, at best, just bright lights that might help the rescue services close in on you but will not grab the laymans attention.
I've used flares in a rescue situation where the lifeboat could not identify us from their radar or by using their direction finding equipment and so we resorted to the simple solution of a red flare. They were alongside in minutes after that. I doubt that a laser device would have worked in the situation we found ourselves in as the wave height was such that it was the loom of the flare above the waves that had been spotted, not the flare directly, which is what is needed for the laser devices.
Bru
Well-known member
Duncan, have a proper look at the way the Odeo laser flare works. It is specifically designed to replicate the effect of a hand held red flare including creating a reflection of overhead cloud etc
maxi77
Active member
But as yet totally unaproved and not recognised as a SOLAS device and very likely to scare away parafin budgie pilots. In all not something I would trust my life to. A mobile phone is probably better
Bru
Well-known member
Correct, correct, nonsense, a valid decision and ludicrous
Gwylan
Well-known member
Wow! it seemed a simple question, asking for the wisdom of this noble assembly. Seems to have lured some less than generous commentators out of the woodwork.
My original question stands - shall I get conned into buying another set of flares - especially since France is a favourite sailing spot.
All the more so after being charged £30 to park at Eastbourne and walk miles to the loo!
My original question stands - shall I get conned into buying another set of flares - especially since France is a favourite sailing spot.
All the more so after being charged £30 to park at Eastbourne and walk miles to the loo!
duncan99210
Well-known member
Unless it is producing as many lumens as a flare, along with the smoke plume which is illuminated by the light, I am more than a little sceptical of the claims for laser devices. And that is at night, when electrically powered lights are at their most effective. In daylight, they cannot take the place of smoke, which produces a large visible marker in all but the very worst of conditions. When the technology is mature enough to be both as visible as pyrotechnics, acceptable for use when signalling to aircraft and has been approved for use under SOLAS regulations, I will the entertain having them on board. Until then, I'll hang on to my fireworks.
JumbleDuck
Well-known member
Me too. Horrible night, they were probably within a hundred yards of us when they asked for a handheld to be fired ... and ten seconds later asked us to drop it as they were so near that it was dazzling them. It burned very prettily underwater as it headed to the bottom of the Sound of Islay.
Bru
Well-known member
There seems to be an inexplicably aggressive attitude to many of the pro-pyrotechnics posts
I'm certainly not saying you shouldn't carry pyrotechnic flares if you consider it wise, I've simply stated my reasons for no longer doing so
I consider it to be acceptable not to do so now and that the drawbacks of pyrotechnics outweigh the few remaining advantages
On a specific point, it's now been stated on two occasions that there could be issues with laser flares and aircraft. This contradicts the statements from the manufacturers and the RYA so I'm genuinely interested to learn why people believe it to be the case
I'm certainly not saying you shouldn't carry pyrotechnic flares if you consider it wise, I've simply stated my reasons for no longer doing so
I consider it to be acceptable not to do so now and that the drawbacks of pyrotechnics outweigh the few remaining advantages
On a specific point, it's now been stated on two occasions that there could be issues with laser flares and aircraft. This contradicts the statements from the manufacturers and the RYA so I'm genuinely interested to learn why people believe it to be the case
maxi77
Active member
A laser that is visible (anb many that are not visible ) has the potential to cause either tenporary or permanent eye damage. Unless he is absolutely certain a laser is 100% definitely eye safe no pilot will take a risk with his eye sight, would you. Having looked at the literature provided by some of those offering so called laser flares as far as l could make out from the information given I would only use then with caution and not when anyrescuer was approaching me.
Don't get me wrong I think there is great potential for the use of lasers for safety and lifesaving signaling uses at sea but we are no where near that point yet. We need a proper standard incorporated in SOLAS and properly ratified so that the devices are both safe to use for both sides, the resuers and the rescued, and instantly recognisable by all as an approved device.
MinorSwing
New member
Me too in fog off of Guernsey. A white hand held but sufficient for them to spot us.
Bru
Well-known member
To quote from the Odeo flare specification...
"Although the Odeo Flare uses laser technology it has been tested with UK SAR helicopters and proven to be both visible at extreme ranges and also not to disrupt the pilot's ability to fly the SAR aircraft."
These things are DESIGNED to replace pyro flares and to meet SOLAS requirements. They are not type approved YET but they are safe and fit for purpose
"Although the Odeo Flare uses laser technology it has been tested with UK SAR helicopters and proven to be both visible at extreme ranges and also not to disrupt the pilot's ability to fly the SAR aircraft."
These things are DESIGNED to replace pyro flares and to meet SOLAS requirements. They are not type approved YET but they are safe and fit for purpose
Rigger Mortice
N/A
I must admit that I'm not convinced about the lasers, but I've never seen one working. I'm not sure that they offer any more than a good searchlight.
Bru
Well-known member
There is quite simply no comparison
Suggest you have a look at
http://www.odeoflare.co.uk/home.php
Which also includes links to videos
The laser flare emits a flickering random bright red light in both the vertical and horizontal planes with periodic emission of the intentional distress signal
duncan99210
Well-known member
My problem is that the website claims are all very well but there is no proper peer reviewed report into the product, only magazine tests which didn't impress me with the rigour of their methodology. I'd like to see a report produced by say Southampton University maritime people proving that the products are both as effective as pyrotechnic pinpoint flares and that they are eye safe for aircrew and lifeboat crews. And then they need international recognition as MED approved devices (ie bearing the ships wheel mark), along with the educational requirement to get buy in across the international maritime community so that a Greek fisherman will understand what it is that he is seeing as well as that of a SAR professional in UK waters.
Don't misunderstand me, I can see the point of looking for alternatives to pyrotechnics but what is currently available is not recognised by any standards body, only fills one small hole in the overall spectrum of pyrotechnics and it is disingenuous of the manufacturers to imply that although it is not approved as a SOLAS device that it meets the MED requirements by their statements in their FAQs.
Enough. I've had my say and will retain my fireworks - indeed I have to as the Greeks get upset if you don't have them on board.
maxi77
Active member
Rigger Mortice
N/A
Thanks for that link. I saw that site sometime ago but it is interesting to be reminded of these things. As I was watching it I suddenly realised that, other then the YM video, there did not seem to be any mention of lasers. I checked through it all and, though I may have missed it, I wonder if lasers emitters have now been substituted by conventional LED's?
Whatever the case, I like the long life, I like the ease of use, but I am not sure that they can really be regarded as a complete replacement for flares just yet. A useful step in the right direction though, and something suitable will come along. I think that those who insist that pyro's will never be replaced are just being luddites about it.
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JumbleDuck
Well-known member
So, nothing like a flare, then. Will J Random Hiker ashore think that a flickering red light is a distress signal?
JumbleDuck
Well-known member
I saw something recent;y which suggest that to be the case. Can't remember where, though, but it was along the lines of "the Odeo Mk 2 has a new light source". Does that raise questions about the perfection of the older one?
Rigger Mortice
N/A
Not necessarily. A Mk 2 version of anything is often an improvement. LED technology is changing very rapidly. In this case I just don't know.