Flaming Flares

[MinorSwing]

There is quite simply no comparison

Suggest you have a look at
http://www.odeoflare.co.uk/home.php
Which also includes links to videos

The laser flare emits a flickering random bright red light in both the vertical and horizontal planes with periodic emission of the intentional distress signal[/QUOTE)
Strangely the website tells you nothing about the laser safety aspects of the device

I would like to see a post from a helicopter pilot letting us know their attitude to flying towards lasers. We all know, or should do, that they don't want you to fire parachute flares so switch to hand held once they're near you, but what about lasers?

 

[Bru]

I would like to see a post from a helicopter pilot letting us know their attitude to flying towards lasers. We all know, or should do, that they don't want you to fire parachute flares so switch to hand held once they're near you, but what about lasers?

Which has already been answered ...

"Although the Odeo Flare uses laser technology it has been tested with UK SAR helicopters and proven to be both visible at extreme ranges and also not to disrupt the pilot's ability to fly the SAR aircraft."

Strangely the website tells you nothing about the laser safety aspects of the device

You're right, it doesn't. Checking the instructions that come with and on it, the safety advice is that whilst it is safe to the eyes in use for an observer at any distance you should not look at the lens whilst holding it in your hand (which is analogous to using a hand held pyro flare - you wouldn't stare at one of those from a couple of feet either)

Thanks for that link. I saw that site sometime ago but it is interesting to be reminded of these things. As I was watching it I suddenly realised that, other then the YM video, there did not seem to be any mention of lasers. I checked through it all and, though I may have missed it, I wonder if lasers emitters have now been substituted by conventional LED's?

I think it's more a case of dropping the use of the word "laser" (which was never truly accurate when applied to LED technology anyway) because of the very attitudes towards lasers and aircraft et al expressed by the sceptics on this forum (e.g. laser + aircraft = no!).

Whatever the case, I like the long life, I like the ease of use, but I am not sure that they can really be regarded as a complete replacement for flares just yet. A useful step in the right direction though, and something suitable will come along. I think that those who insist that pyro's will never be replaced are just being luddites about it.

I certainly wouldn't advocate Odeo FLares or similar as a complete replacement for pyros - they replicate and replace the function of hand held red flares, not parachute or smoke flares. In combination with other equipment however I do believe it is possible now to dispense with pyro flares with some compromises

So, nothing like a flare, then. Will J Random Hiker ashore think that a flickering red light is a distress signal?

Did you go and read the info on the link or are you just going to stick to an entrenched position without giving it any actual consideration?

I quote from the manufacturers website (to save you time) ...

"Will others know it as a distress flare?Yes. Apart from the flame-like flicker, it also makes the SOS signal as described in Annex 4 to Colregs, and is thus an internationally recognised distress signal. It has similar visual characteristics to a conventional flare, and a piercing light – but, of course, it lasts considerably longer: 5 hours in continuous use, longer if used intermittently."


"In a trial undertaken by Auckland City Police, New Zealand, Auckland Coastguard, who were unaware of the trial, spotted the Odeo Flare at 4nm, reporting it as a distress flare"

The device is designed to look as much like a pyro flare as possible without actually being one.

OK, so it isn't yet SOLAS approved. I doubt it will be for some time. The wheels turn slowly on such things because so many contributory organisations have to agree. The US authorities are seemingly quite keen on [FONT=Lato, sans-serif]eVDS (electronic Visual Distress Signals) to give them their official title. The MCA advise is that eVDS can be carried as an additional means of distress signally but due to the lack of approvals as yet pyro flares must still be carried on coded and commercial vessels[/FONT]

[FONT=Lato, sans-serif]There are good arguments for the time being for retaining pyro flares on board. There are good arguments, for that matter, for retaining pyro flares as part of the overall package of distress signalling equipment long term[/FONT]

[FONT=Lato, sans-serif]Equally, it is now, and only now, possible to put together a setup where pyro flares are no longer essential and then it comes down to an individual / crew decision as to whether to continue carrying pyros (on a non-coded boat)

For me, the decision is to dispense with pyros (although I'm still havering over orange smoke). For many posters here the decision is to stick with pyros. I don't have an issue with that. I do get annoyed when people put up spurious and erroneous arguments though! [/FONT]
[FONT=Lato, sans-serif]



[/FONT]

 

[rotrax]

>Well said-my view exactly.

What Erbas said is nonsense as are many of the posts. Flares still have an important roll to play and always will. As said earlier good luck if you don't carry them and have to be rescued.

Nonsense is a bit strong and OTT.

His post was reasoned, well structured and comprehensive.

I have a RORC flare pack.

To replace it is £200.00 plus at most chandlers.

It is in date untill this time next year. I shall keep it, but not replace it, but may purchase in the future new technology.

If you dont agree-thats cool.

I shall continue sailing in my prudent manner and enjoying the ocean, with the thought firmly in mind that I maintain a well found vessel, very seaworthy and strong which is undoubtedly better than First Mate and I.

 

[KellysEye]

One thought about flares and the cost is most yachts don't sail at night, that removes the need for parachute flares and white hand held flares to scare ships off, although a bright light on the main works as we found. The only ones needed are the big Pains Wessex orange smokes that you throw in the water.

 

[Bru]

One thought about flares and the cost is most yachts don't sail at night, that removes the need for parachute flares and white hand held flares to scare ships off, although a bright light on the main works as we found. The only ones needed are the big Pains Wessex orange smokes that you throw in the water.

And indeed that's exactly what I'm cogitating on putting on board to cover the one function that the new tech can't adequately (arguably clearly! ) replicate

 

[Rigger Mortice]

Wasn't a forumite experimenting with making his own smoke flares a while ago?

I'm sure there was but I can't find it. True PBO spirit!

 

[MinorSwing]

One thought about flares and the cost is most yachts don't sail at night, that removes the need for parachute flares and white hand held flares to scare ships off, although a bright light on the main works as we found. The only ones needed are the big Pains Wessex orange smokes that you throw in the water.

Parachute flares are still effective in daylight; lots of noise, a trail of smoke, and a bright light hanging in the sky. I reported a distress east of the Isle of Wight once because of a parachute flare fired about four miles away. I wouldn't rely on orange smoke as a distress signal, except to guide in a rescuer.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Did you go and read the info on the link or are you just going to stick to an entrenched position without giving it any actual consideration?

I was responding to the claim that the LED flare gives a "flickering red light". I wonder how many casual passersby would recognize a flickering red light (even if it occasionally gives a morse SOS, which may mean something to as many as one in a hundred people) as a distress signal?

 

[Rigger Mortice]

On the one hand you've got a fixed bright light that lasts for just 60 seconds
On the other you have a flickering light which lasts for hours.
Neither is perfect.

 

[Bru]

I was responding to the claim that the LED flare gives a "flickering red light". I wonder how many casual passersby would recognize a flickering red light (even if it occasionally gives a morse SOS, which may mean something to as many as one in a hundred people) as a distress signal?

So, I can't help myself from asking ... what does a red hand held flare produce? Answer .. a flickering red light!!!

To be serious ... yes this is one of the potential (current) drawbacks of eVDS however it is a drawback that is effectively eliminated because I am not expecting, anticipating or relying on flares (of any description) to initiate a response from the emergency services

The initial alert will be achieved by other means - DSC VHF, EPRIB, PLB (individually or collectively). The purpose of the Odeo flare is to guide in the SAR asset(s) on their final approach

Having said that, independent tests (Dutch coastguard for one) have resulted in the Odeo flare being recognised as a distress signal by people who were not "in the loop"

Anyway, each to their own - I am certainly not going to criticise anybody who continues carry pyro flares and if it wasn't for the near impossible task of trying to dispose of out of date flares when you live 120 miles from the coast I'd probably continue to do so as a back up. I do think it unwise to dismiss the modern alternatives out of hand and I think it likely that over time eVDS coupled with DSC/EPIRB/PLB will become the primary method of signalling with pyro flares relegated to a backup role (I would anticipate them remaining as part of the standard equipment in a liferaft for example)

Here's hoping that none of us ever need any of it in anger in the future!

 

[JumbleDuck]

On the one hand you've got a fixed bright light that lasts for just 60 seconds

"Hey. What's that light over there?"
"Over where?"
"Over the ... hang on, it's gone. I'm sure I saw something"
"Maybe. Probably nothing important."

On the other you have a flickering light which lasts for hours.

"Hey, what's that light over there?"
"Over where?"
"There"
"Oh, that? It's been there for ages. Must be at least an hour. Can't be anything important."

Neither is perfect.

True.

 

[flaming]

Before consigning flares to the history books consider the following cases.

Hooligan V. Equipped with DSC VHF, and EPIRB if I recall. Keel falls off and boat rolls. Crew in the water until they manage to free the liferaft. Without the flares there would have been at least one more fatality. As it was the flares got a response on a thoroughly nasty winters night in the channel and they were rescued by a ship.

Rambler. Arguably the most advanced and well equipped racing yacht in the world at the time. Keel falls off at the fastnet rock and most of the crew end up on the upturned hull, with 4 still in the water.
On the face of it this is a great example of modern tech working, as they were found as a result of a PLB that one of the crew had, but in reality that was shear luck as it was a personal device and not registered to the boat. Only Leopard's navigator recognising the name when it was broadcast over the VHF made anyone realise what had happened and who the casualty was. They had also activated an EPIRB, which was not picked up until after they were all ashore. The next boat, ICAP Leopard, passed within ½ mile of the upturned hull, but did not see them. Had a single Flare ended up outside the boat the story would have ended there, as there is no doubt that a flare would have caught the eye of any one of the 15 or so crew on Leopard. As it was the PLB signal was not detected for some time, and when it was Leopard was many miles away and not in a position to help, other than to recognise the name the PLB was registered to and report that the casualty was Rambler. To reiterate, they had sailed right past the upturned hull of Rambler without seeing it, or the PLB or EPIRB that had been activated being any use at all.

Remember Flares attract attention from those around you, who are probably the best placed to help. Work when they're wet, without electrons, can cope quite happily with being stored in a liferaft for years at a time (unlike handheld VHFs for example) and have no delay.

 

[jerrytug]

Top post Flaming

 

[jerrytug]

"Hey. What's that light over there?"
"Over where?"
"Over the ... hang on, it's gone. I'm sure I saw something"
"Maybe. Probably nothing important."



"Hey, what's that light over there?"
"Over where?"
"There"
"Oh, that? It's been there for ages. Must be at least an hour. Can't be anything important."



True.

Yes but it depends how many rockets you carry, I have about 20. "Are you sure, that's only 17 red parachute flares fired from the same bearing, it could be a birthday party on the Sandettie Bank"
Beat that with your glorified bicycle lamp.

 

[Bru]

Before consigning flares to the history books consider the following cases. ...
.

OK, fair comment flaming (how appropriate!) but ...

In the case of Hooligan V you don't explain why flares worked and DSC VHF / EPRIB didn't

In the case of Rambler the PLB worked after a fashion

In neither case was a eVDS deployed, nor in either case was an AIS beacon deployed

I ought to be getting ready for work but what the hell ...

Reading the MAIB report on the Hooligan V incident -

- firstly no amount of flares would have saved the life of the crew member who died (according to the conclusions of the MAIB report)
- the EPIRB was not activated because it was found to be missing from the grab bag
- the first parachute flare deployed was fired horizontally and immediately vanished underwater, two further flares were fired successfully from the grab bag pack
- a further parachute flare and two pinpoint red flares were fired some 30 minutes after the first three using the liferaft flare pack
- at 04:02, some 40 minutes or more after the capsize, a flare sighting was reported by a container ship
- at 04:20 the four survivors were rescued after firing off three more flares when they saw the lights of an approaching ship (the ship already had them in sight in fact)

From the MAIB summary, the first three flares fired were not reported. One of the three flares (the parachute flare) fired after the crew finally made it into the liferaft WAS spotted

The hand held VHF listed as being in the grab bag inventory was not mentioned again anywhere in the report. I surmise it was not a DSC unit as these were not readily available seven years ago

No PLB or EPIRB was activated nor was any eVDS used (again these were not readily available seven years ago)

My conclusion ... far from supporting the carriage of pyro flares, this report reinforces my belief that they are neither reliable nor particularly effective. The crew fired off a total of nine flares. Of the initial batch of 3 parachute flares fired from the boat flare kit shortly after the inversion, one either malfunctioned or was incorrectly operated (and this was an experienced well trained crew by the way), the other two were not reported

It was the second batch of one parachute flare and two hand held flares fired some 30 minutes later from the liferaft flare kit that was seen and reported by a merchant vessel

The third batch of firings were superfluous as the rescuing vessel already had them in sight

It is also worth noting that the crew, all experienced sailors as I mentioned above, had significant difficulkty deploying lifejackets, failed altogether to use their spray hoods, struggled to release the life raft and inflate it and had further difficulties boarding it. Had it not been for one strong swimmer in the group it is likely they would never have deployed the liferaft or any of the flares and the outcome would surely have been even worse

My own speculative conclusion is that if a> the EPIRB had been in the grab bag where it should have been, b> the VHF hand held in the grab bag had been a DSC unit and/or c> the grab bag had contained, or one of the crew had been carrying, a PLB registered to the vessel* rescue might have taken place much sooner - in this case a hand held DSC VHF would have been the weapon of choice. An AIS rescue beacon would also have been beneficial (and here's hoping for a combined PLB/AIS beacon before too long)

An eVDS such as an Odeo flare could have been just as effective as the flares fired - which were not a spectacular success anyway

And looking at the Rambler case (an Eire investigation this time)

Once again we find that the EPIRB, mounted in the companionway, was not deployed. Nor was there a grab bag available close to the exits (if at all)

Every crew member had been issued with a PLB however only two of these were activated (both on the survivors clinging to the upturned hull), none of the five survivors in the water had their PLBs on them at the time of the accident

Neither of the two liferafts could be deployed from the inverted hull

I quote "Two PLBs were activated by crew members on the upturned hull. Despite the fact that both were correctly registered with NOAA Satellite and Information Service in the USA in the name of Mr. George David and a 24 hour emergency contact – Gigi Barnard – was supplied along with three telephone numbers, confusion reigned as to who ‘Gigi Barnard’ was. This led to a delay of approximately one hour before MRSC Valentia declared ‘MAYDAY’. If the PLB registration had included information such as the name of the vessel that the holder was sailing on, the vessel’s call sign and satellite phone number, MRSC Valentia would have
been in a position to launch a full search and rescue operation sooner."

The RNLI struggled to find the casualties even when they were in the area by the way. No pyro flares were used (none were available to the crew) nor was an form of eVDS deployed

Had it not been for the two PLBs, it is likely there would have been fatalities, as it was, it was the technology that saved the day albeit slowly

This case highlights the vital need to maintain up to date details on the EPIRB/PLB registration database. There is no reason why a PLB cannot be registered to a vessel as well as an individual and (in the UK at least) that information can be updated on-line (although from the context of the web site I suspect it is not yet a fully automated process and there may be manual processing delays involved)

Would pyro flares have been any better? We'll never know.

Both cases highlight the need to make sure that your safety equipment IS where you need it to be, that it is properly maintained and up to date and that your crew really does know how to use it and they aren't just nodding and going "yeah, yeah" during your safety briefings!

Both vessels carried an EPIRB, neither crew were able to deploy and activate it

In once case flares eventually saved the day after some 30 minutes

In the other two PLBs saved the day after an hour or so (much of which delay could have been avoided had the vessel details been registered to either PLB)

Edit:

I forgot to say that in both cases the on-board DSC VHF did not feature in the incident because the incident itself was a catastrophic keel failure followed by immediate inversion. This is obviously a potential risk for racing vessels such as the two yachts in question, I doubt me it's going to happen too often to a bilge keel Sabre 27!

 

[Bru]

Yes but it depends how many rockets you carry, I have about 20.

REALLY???? Jeez! Remind me never to moor next to you <kaboom>

 

[flaming]

In once case flares eventually saved the day after some 30 minutes

In the other two PLBs saved the day after an hour or so (much of which delay could have been avoided had the vessel details been registered to either PLB)

Which is exactly why most of my sailing is done with EPIRB, Flares, DSC VHF, mobile phones....

To wilfully discard a proven life saver is somewhat reckless in my view.

 

[Heckler]

>They have been known to kill people

Please could you let us know when and where people have been killed by flares?

The point of flares is to make a boat easy to see, whether the boat is amongst 100's of boats in the Solent or out in the ocean. Nothing else can do that. Bear in mind that an out of date parachute flare exploded in a cruiser's hand in Lagos, Portugal, I saw it happen. Wear gloves if firing any flare. Also I fired a Pains Wessex large orange smoke that was in date doing a sky diving demo, it didn't work.

Footymatch, man from Wrexham, jailed for killing someone at Cardiff? Wales playing?
Here you go http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-24931711
stu

 

[Bru]

Which is exactly why most of my sailing is done with EPIRB, Flares, DSC VHF, mobile phones....

To wilfully discard a proven life saver is somewhat reckless in my view.

You may be right but neither of the cases you highlighted are a good advert for pyrotechnics are they?

In one case they weren't used at all and in the other case the technical solutions I'm advocating would potentially have been more effective

The question is NOT whether flares are proven life savers (Obviously they are) but whether they have or have not been superceded by recent technical advances

I would agree though that if you're going to sail on boats with a tendency to lose their keels you'd better have everything possible at hand!

 

[Rigger Mortice]

Footymatch, man from Wrexham, jailed for killing someone at Cardiff? Wales playing?
stu

True, but completely irrelevant.