Fin Keel? Long Keel?

But Jim, whilst I have no disagreement with the points made by you - there is one additional point worth bearing in mind with regard to long-keel boats and their alleged "sea-kindliness", and that is they are invariably heavier than similar size fin keelers.

In short frequency waves as you get in the Med, this additional weight is an important factor, allowing the boat to punch through the chop. I know the design weight of my boat is 3 tons on a 29'10" waterline and windward work is purgatory.

It also means that in light airs the long-keel owner has to start the engine sooner, as well as the non-existent close-quarters handling one experiences.
 
This one is turning into an epic and have resisted the temptation til now!

Clearly the subject of fin/spade vs long keel for offshore sailing is a thorny one and no doubt, someone will have a pop at me for my views but this is the way I see it.

We have friends who have sailed across the Atlantic in long keeled boats, fin keeled, drop keeled plywood boxes, multihulls and even a mate who's about to leave for his fifth transat in a Moody bilge keeler.

What the owners have in common is the right attitude - the Hallberg Rassy guy may fail to hack it when the bloke in the leaky old Buchanan does it without fuss or complaint.

Almost anything will take you across the Atlantic (East to West) on tradewind passage - it's been done by a swimmer in relays, a windsurfer, open boats, rowers, etc. On the return journey you may well have more windward work where a long deep keel can be a bonus and a bit of speed can help avoid the wrong weather system.

People will raise their eyebrows at fin keels (personally I shiver at the massive picture windows in deck saloons) but at the end of the day we all trust our lives to our vessels (at least those of us who go offshore do) and we must all make our own decisions.

Our experience is limited to N Europe, Med, Atlantic and Caribbean (the Pacific/Indian Ocean remains a dream) but the truth is that there are all sorts of boats out there and all sorts of people. A lot of the stuff you see waiting in Canaries at this time of year looks like it might not cross the Solent - the majority of people setting out will get there and of the ones who fail, it's often the humans giving up on a boat which is found months later still floating.

If you feel you need a long keeler and that suits you - enjoy (I've had a few myself over the years). But please don't give me grief for my choice of boat.

I wouldn't presume to tell you what car to drive or whether you should live in a bungalow or a house, how much power your household should use or whether a motorcycle is too dangerous for you - sailing would be a much more socially enjoyable activity if we were all a little more tolerant of each other's choices
 
Sorry....having a senior typing moment.

I meant to say that a deep fin keel can be handy for windward work on West-East transatlantic and good for speedy avoidance of weather systems.

Obviously a long deep keel would be a different thing entirely - hence the length of this thread!
 
Skents,

Thank you for your even-handed approach. My children used to ask me why there were so many kinds of churches, some within blocks of each other, and I told them it was because everyone likes different kinds of worship, just as everyone has a different taste in clothes and houses--and boats.

I came away from a boat show last April saddened that someone who supposedly speaks with authority and sells books based on this authority would be rude enough to categorize the boat I sail (and its sisters) as not worth the glass they're made from. He'd NEVER own one.

Fine. But I do. And many others do. And they've been sailed all over the world. Just because I don't have the money to buy a top-of-the-line newish boat and happen to like long-keeled, wood-trimmed ketches, doesn't mean I'm in more danger at sea than someone with the newest, fastest, greatest, best-resale-valued boat. Sea Venture will take care of us as long as we take care of her and pay attention!

So, I'll see all you fin-keelers out there, crossing oceans with me--or not. And you can enjoy your boat and Michael and I will enjoy ours, and we can share a glass at anchor, telling sea stories and appreciating each other's life.

Blessings,
Normandie

/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
What the owners have in common is the right attitude - the Hallberg Rassy guy may fail to hack it when the bloke in the leaky old Buchanan does it without fuss or complaint.

[/ QUOTE ] Skents, you are absolutely correct.

It is too easy on a thread like this to get bogged down in equipment. At the end of the day it is all about what you do with it. It might help a lot to have good stuff (and I still prefer my cruiser/racer), but if you cannot handle it; you are stuffed. The old saying that the boat will not let down the crew, it is usually the crew that will let will let the boat down is still valid. I know my boat will handle any weather, it is the crew ability that I worry most about.

However, this thread is about the stability/performance of certain keel designs and it is very important for any sailor to understand the inherent benefits/drawbacks of whatever keel design you choose. If you set out on a long cruise; you need to understand how your boat can/will perform. The performance of the skipper/crew is indeed more important, but that is your next task.
 
If you want to be truly amazed at the variety of boats that can achieve the seemingly impossible, visit the Bay of Islands, NZ. Even allowing for the long passage to get there, the state of some boats has to be seen to be believed. Given the will, almost anything that can actually float has made it across. I'm just re-reading the Brendan Voyage at the moment, now there's a 'traditional' boat for you!!! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Ha.. what an interesting debate...

but.. it still is the old adage.. Mr salty is happy in his long keely mk 9 10 or 11... Mr boat show tries to justify the impulse purchase..

bottom line is most never go to sea.. some claim "transatlantic " lol.. well yes.. 3 weeks of boredom in trade winds... some claim actual experience of a design.. truth is.. its just not reallyY TRUE... ie, they sail coastal.. nothing more...

If the [--word removed--] hits the fan, do you want, or indeed, can you reason, for the modern boat show crap compared to a boat designed to GO places. there ARE, obviously, exceptions, but not many in recent years. the design phylosophy caters to the uninformed masses who watch a boat race on discovery channel, buy one, then try there hardest to justify it.
Short LWL; overhangs, Sugarscoop nonsense, plumb bows, fin keels, less wetted areas are for speed, in racing... nothing moe, but, the average guy doesent want to or do "racing".
Brenden voyage, give me a break, some ficticious irish fanatic in a cowskin hull... bs.... we here tails of salty seadogs with no power, no lights, no nothing, not much common sense either.. we did this, we did that... again, moslty lucky bs.

There is a modern daY "CROWD" who want to cross the sahara in a ford fiesta, it MAY be done, but unlikely to be productive or sustainable. There are the dubious wallers who can make a 100 ah battery last 5 days with a few prayers and a gift from the gods.... and, there are people who realise that there is a lot more to it...

you see the latter in ports all over the world, wanting and not finding, crew buggers off, they wait for next victim(s).. they oft go single handed, not due to some macho basal instinct, but due to no normal sensible person WILLING to set foot on their boat.. so they wing it, then claim heroic events....

be real..

if you want to go places, WHEN you want, buy the right vehicle, and perrrlease stoip trying to justify the crap the modern industry churns out.

GM was a pile of crap, FC said so, he spend months trying to sort out its wayward tendancies (without success !), yet it is now hailed as a classic. ,,, nope, a pile of dogs dollop.. easilly piled up on a small reef with a few hours of mismanagement.. not a classic, a mistake.... ridgeway and blith did far more in a [--word removed--] westerly bilge keeler before valuing their lives above this...

A bit like a space shuttle cockpit recorder.. last words.. "Go on.............. on, be fair, let HER have a drive"...
 
bottom line is most never go to sea.. some claim "transatlantic " lol.. well yes.. 3 weeks of boredom in trade winds... some claim actual experience of a design.. truth is.. its just not reallyY TRUE... ie, they sail coastal.. nothing more...

_____________________________________________

I can imagine some people might "claim" transatlantic experience - the sort of person who aspires to go offshore but can't cut mustard. But in the reality, long distance cruising is a small world where most people know someone who knows someone so "faking it" isn't as easy as a "wannabe" might imagine.

It might seem unlikely to you, that people have experience of many different types of design but (believe it or not) many of us are curious about the pros and cons of different types of boat and
not adverse to experimentation. Our catalogue of ownership is pretty broad and each vessel has had advantages and disadvantages. We haven't felt at risk in any of them and wouldn't go to sea in a vessel if we did.

Also, many of us non deep keel sailors aren't victims of boat show hype. Have you heard of a yacht called Bagheera (the Copelands) - they've written books on their experiences - tens and tens of thousands of miles in an AWB?

In our case, we spent two years building our boat from scratch (and that means building it...not paying someone else do do the sweaty stuff) - hardly an impulse buy.

I return to my earlier post - if you're happy with your boat then tell us about it but have the good grace to accept that we can be happy with ours too. We're not all crazed adventurers with a wild glint in our eye - we confidently cross oceans as a family with the aim of having a safe, comfortable passage, not a skin of the teeth adventure.

Obviously you consider an ocean crossing to be "three weeks of boredom on a trade wind passage" - in which case, it's probably best that you avoid such tedium and those of us who enjoy it just go out and do it in the boat of our choice.
 
No No, Sir
I actually think you hit the proverbial nail on it´s bonce. !
Nicely said.

Dont get me wrong.. I agree fully with your sentiments.. just disagree with some conclusions. lol..

but be fair !!:. trans altalntic .. at the BEST time of year is no red letter day.... its NOT a divider in experience.. so many have 3 weeks so called "experience" repeateted over and over again.. just repetative bs--

Joe. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
 
I agree with you Skents: It seems that the very wordy Captain Slarty has a very limited experience of different boats. You are very correct that those of us that have experienced several keel designs usually (but not always) come down on the side of the modern fin and spade design. A good example is the leading edge naval architects of the Hoek Design Office: they design traditional yachts, that is their above waterline design, but they have a very modern underwater design with deep fins and spades.

On your other point, you are correct that you can actually get around in anything if you really know what you are doing; there is a Swede called Sven Yrvind that is trying to find the smallest boat possible to get around in. He has already crossed the Atlantic in an 18 foot boat and his present project is 14 foot. You can follow his progress on this web site:

Yrvind small ocean yachts

It proves that you can do it in anything, if you have the knowledge and tenacity. For me personally, I rather do it with my central heating and two showers but that is my personal choice. I do admire people like Yrvind a lot, but rather them than me.
 
Joe, why are you knocking a 3 week tradewind passage (OK, mostly downhill) across the Atlantic?
Have you been there, done it so many times that it is old hat now?
For those folk who havent yet done it, it will be an exciting adventure - everything is relative.
I have pottered across twice (from east to west), the first time on a long-fin-and-skeg cruising yacht, and the second on an out-and-out racing yacht (albeit from 1932), and I am looking forward to the next time (one day.....), whatever it might happen to be that I am sailing on.

Barbados is a first port of call in the new world for many yachts (and with my signature below I am hoping to attract more boats to visit) - and we certainly do see a very motley collection of boats of all shapes, sizes, rigs and hull configurations turn up here.
Invariably everybody generally :
had a good passage,
learnt a hell of a lot as a result of doing it, and
possibly now have views on what they would do it in the next time - and these views will equally invariably be everything under the sun!
 
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