Fin Keel? Long Keel?

We have a long keel Challenger 35, and I am very pleased that we only have to ever go into a dock when we haul out (she lives on a mooring, and if we go places, we always anchor) - I would not like to have to get her in and out of a tight marina berth regularly! Especially if there is tide as well to contend with....

I have huge admiration for Mike Pocock and his designs - like Laurent Giles and Sparkman & Stephens, his designs all have a definitive style that is Mike.
And they are all legendary cruising yachts - Troubadour and Blackjack (also her ketch rigged sister Lumberjack) come to mind (and there are quite a few), while Twilight (his latest design for himself) must be one of the finest small cruising yachts under 30' around now.
 
>maybe a long keel could make me feel safer ....but I am not convinced. I have read somewhere (a book storm tactics) that what knocks a boat down is not wind or wave BUT a breaking wave

Correct but if the waves are coming close to knockdown state then it's time to do something. I'd rather be in a heavy long keeler with a parachute anchor than a lightweight fin and spade towing drogues.
 
Robin - exactly what I would have said (were I as erudite as you!!) I especially agree on the point about designers evolving their designs. No company is going to design unsafe boats - and stay in business and yes, even if the market is predominantly 'marina' boats, they must design to the worst case or risk serious litigation at some stage (unless of course they don't sell to the Yanks!!!)
 
Interesting,its a friends boat so noyhad a lot pof time aboard sailing,I was disapointed in the inaility of the boat to keep a course for instace whilst motoring in and needig time to hag out feders etc ,no big deal but .... apart from that uderway witthe s/s a treat to be aboard,the boat it self has just returned from a circumnavigation without problems!
 
>I especially agree on the point about designers evolving their designs.

A lot of design changes came from racing boats where designers and builders saw an opportunity to mass market much cheaper, lighter boats. The changes weren't based on seaworthiness but consideration of how 99% of sailors use their boats - in light/medium conditions or rarely if ever.

>No company is going to design unsafe boats - and stay in business and yes, even if the market is predominantly 'marina' boats, they must design to the worst case or risk serious litigation...

Well, they won't design unsafe boats as such but they do design boats whose keels fall off, whose (swept back spreaders) masts fall down, whose spade rudders break... But then that's usually people using a boat for something it wasn't designed for. Do the sailors affected have grounds to sue, I don't know, they chose the boat and what they did with it.
 
If I may digress,although related to ther topic.I suffer from the Moitessier Syndrome ,which is basically ot taking the boat out uless your going somewhere,ie not for a trip round the bayThere where two reasons for this a long keeled boat is not easy to park i marinas ad the palaver to get under way took the shine off an evening sail,I have sold the boat now,but observing the ease which my mate takes out hid Nic 32 there is no doubt that I would avoid heavy long keelers,although they do say most of the time on a world cruise is spent stopped....and then the iertia to get sailig again is enoumous!
 
Kelly,
I guess I come from an aircraft design background where you have to work out the worst load/usage cases and design for them. I would be very surprised if Yacht designers do differently. The racing boat whose keel fell of recently had had the keel support design altered by the subcontractors without authorisation and then it had been further modified by the owner - even then it had campaigned many races before it failed. I agree that spade rudders need to be strong - and maybe some companies who make fibre glass stocks need their heads examining but I bet their stress engineers can support the case.
With the numbers of boats out there, of couse some will fail but I flatly reject any arguments that modern boats are unseaworthy by design. Look at the boats that do the ARC/Blue water succesfully circumnavigate etc etc.
Maybe we should be looking at the 'safety' of the owners and their ability to cope with conditions and hence the type of boat they tend to buy!!
 
[ QUOTE ]
I believe Chichester was very critical of Gypsy Moth despite his achievements in her.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree pretty much with everything you say but I'd like to add a footnote to the above observation. You're right that Chichester was very critical of GM but he, himself, was probably a contributing factor. It was Chichester's insistence that the boat be steered with a tiller, rather than a wheel, which contributed to the weight in the helm. 50ft+ is quite a size of boat to be steered with a tiller - even a light displacement one. He also complained about how unbalanced she was - carrying considerable weather helm up to a certain angle of heel then switching to lee helm as she went over further.

I seem to remember reading one of his comments that he needed to be accompanied by an elephant in the cockpit to move the tiller and a monkey on deck to work the rigging.

Chichester also pressed the designer on many other points of design which probably resulted in a number of undesirable compromises.
 
Thanks for that Robin.

What you say seems to be in tune with what I have read and my own gut instinct on the whole matter . Also you appear relatively unbiased.

I really don’t want to be motor sailing most the time or be unable to enjoy sailing in light winds. You and a few other posts on here have confirmed in my own mind that fin and spade is the right choice, thank you.

Regards Dave
 
May have bit to do with, I have wheel strg, bit more "fixed" perhaps than your friends, if it, tiller.
Where are you in Galicia?, pm me please. Bill.
 
Agreed...a big man indeed. I read his 'The Lonely Seas and the Sky' as a teenager which I found inspirational. I lent the book to a friend many years later who is an amateur flyer and he reacted in much the same way and would often ask the question, if in a spot of bother 'What would Chichester have done?'.
 
I dont think that Sir Francis would have been complaining about heavy loads on the tiller if he had been sailing a boat like Stormy Weather - she is 54', long keel, approx 24 tonnes, has tiller steering, and she is an absolute sweetie to steer on all points of sail - so long as she is balanced, and in her 'groove'.
And this is not difficult to achieve.
Here she is at Bequia :

StormyWeather-Bequia1993.jpg


Although she is sweet on the helm, she is hard work to singlehand in most other aspects - like 2 pairs of running backstays to contend with on each tack when in cutter headed mode........
 
Great picture of a rather special boat - though she looks considerably bigger than 54ft in that picture! Olin Stephens said that she was his favourite S&S design (out of more than 2,000 he designed), so one must assume that she possessed extraordinary qualities.

Chichester also had to cope with runners, which irritated him tremendously, especially after saying emphatically that he didn't want them.
 
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[ QUOTE ]
Fin keel, long keel, what's the difference once the keel's falled off . . .

[/ QUOTE ] (Farmer Yassur, Woodshuck Festival of Love, Peace and Death)
 
>are unseaworthy by design. Look at the boats that do the ARC/Blue water succesfully circumnavigate etc etc.

I don't think boats are unseaworthy by design but some are more seaworthy (appropriate for ocean passages) than others. You mention the ARC. Look at the number of ARC boats losing their rigs, spade rudders, leaking keel bolts etc. It may be a small percentage but it is significant and these incidents happen every year. Understandably the ARC folk are coy about releasing statistics of serious failures but they would make interesting reading.
 
It seems most people’s reason for choosing a traditional long feel is boat stability. However the following information I came across when researching stability may be of interest:-

Breaking waves are the dangerous waves and can easily capsize a boat if the height of the wave is more than 60% of the length of the boats length when hit from either end and much smaller from the side. A slight increase in wave height can easily overcome the boat stability. Boat stability is the ability of a boat to resist capsizing when hit from the side. Keeping the bow or stern into the waves is the major goal in which case boat stability has little impact on surviving a storm. The main factors are boat length, longer being better.

So my question now is given the ability of a boat to right itself is an important characteristic, would angle of vanishing stability be more of an interest than stability when we consider safety? After all once knocked down we would want to get back up again right? Maybe boat design has changed for a reason.
 
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