Ensigns again

[AuntyRinum]

There are four Dutch military landing craft in Brighton Marina today.
Dissapointed to see that they are flying the Union Flag as a courtesy ensign.
What's the world coming to?

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[Jeremy_W]

Yawn!

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[davidbuttriss]

Perhaps you should have siddled over and had a word?

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[AuntyRinum]

No fear! They've got guns and stuff.

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[jenku]

You sure it's a visit and not an invasion? In the latter case maybe it's not really courtesy at all...

<hr width=100% size=1>http://www.sail.to/alacrity

 

[Stork_III]

But The're Dutch, they won't know how to use them.

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[gjeffery]

Probably saw the UK Olympic boats

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[Guest]

I presume that you think that they should have been flying a red ensign? Or a white? Why do you think that the red ensign, if that IS what you think, would have been more 'correct'.

Personally I doubt that there is any particular "correct" version in the case of a courtesy flag, unless you can point to an Act of Parliament that shows me the contrary. And I believe that it would distinctly UNcourteous of a host to be critical of which courtesy flag a visitor puts up. In fact I do not believe that by law a visitor is required to fly ANY courtesy flag, it is purely an act of courtesy, and it's a pity if the hosts can't be courteous in return.

Have I misunderstood you?

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[AuntyRinum]

It is customary, but not obligatory, when lying in a foreign port to fly the maritime ensign of the country being visited, as a mark of courtesy. The British maritime Ensign for use as a courtesy ensign is the Red Ensign and not the Union Flag.
The Union Flag is flown only by ships of the Royal Navy and Royal Air Force vessels and then only in special circumstances.
I hope that answers your question.


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[jimi]

Is there any truth in the rumour that Churchill wanted it changed from red to blue
1) to stop free advertising for the labour party
2) In case our yank friends in the cols war thought we were russkies?

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[Guest]

No it doesn't. I was asking on what authority the supposed 'custom' is based. I have heard people saying this before, and I notice that quite a lot of merchant ships use the red ensign as a courtesy flag (their British counterparts do after all, fly the red ensign), but it always seemed illogical to me that it should be the maritime flag.

Are there published laws on the matter? Where can I find them?

If however, as I suspect, a courtesy flag is flown as a matter of courtesy, not as a legal requirement, then visiting boats are of course free to fly whichever courtesy flag they deem most appropriate and, as a matter of politeness, it would be improper to criticise. Any such criticism would be based on a mixture of rudeness and ignorance.

BTW British yachts visiting abroad frequently fly courtesy flags other than the maritime flags of the countries they are visiting. Should they be shot?

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[clyst]

I may be wrong and I probably am but I always thought it was the host country's national flag that was flown as a courtesy flag .

Cheers

Terry

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[waverider]

Yes it would be the flag I would fly too, which I believe is flown higher of that of the visiting vessels national!

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[Beagle]

Dutch navy

Could be flying the union flag because:

1 got a NATO stock number, both red and blue ensign don't; or
2 thought the red ensign from Dutch chandlerys are way too small (but cheap!); or
3 I told them to fly anything except a France flag; or
4 I told them to fly anything except a flag resembling anything like the (dirty word comming up) "EU"; or
5 Being cortious to ony UK navy, they're the one able to shoot back; or
6 Duch navy sailor wanted to post on SB without access to a computer....

Feel free to ask, they won't shoot since we hate to pay for bullets......

edit: please ignore my spelling tonight.. way off...

<hr width=100% size=1>Never attempt to teach a pig to sing.
It is a waste of time and it annoys the pig.<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by Beagle on 12/10/2004 21:23 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[Guest]

That was my understanding of the general rule, though many merchant ships do seem to use the red ensign. It seems to me that it shouldn't matter though which a visitor uses. Visiting foreign yachts in Schleswig Holstein for example often fly the Schleswig flag, not the German one.

I would be surprised if the Dutch Navy didn't have a good reason for doing what they did. They are very hot on flag etiquette. Den Helder marina, run by the Dutch Navy is the only marina I've visited where they hand you out a special printed note asking you to make sure you take down your ensign at sunset!


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[AuntyRinum]

Simon,

<Are there published laws on the matter? Where can I find them?>
There is a lot of published law on the matter, the most recent of which is the Merchant Shipping Act 1995 a copy of which can probably be found by searching the internet. The appropriate section ( I’m not sad enough to type this out so I’ve copied and pasted from my copy) reads:
Merchant Shipping Act 1995
2.—(1) The flag which every British ship is entitled to fly is the red ensign (without any defacement or modification) and, subject to subsections (2) and (3) below, no other colours.
(2) Subsection (1) above does not apply to Government ships.
(3) The following are also proper national colours, that is to say—
(a) any colours allowed to be worn in pursuance of a warrant from Her Majesty or from the Secretary of State;
(b) in the case of British ships registered in a relevant British possession, any colours consisting of the red ensign defaced or modified whose adoption for ships registered in that possession is authorised or confirmed by Her Majesty by Order in Council.

So that explains why the red ensign is our maritime flag.

I said before that courtesy flags are customary, not obligatory.

In answer to your question <BTW British yachts visiting abroad frequently fly courtesy flags other than the maritime flags of the countries they are visiting. Should they be shot?>
Whether visiting yachtsmen should be shot is entirely a matter for the country being visited and each country has its own customs in that respect.


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[AuntyRinum]

Re: Dutch navy

That's the best reply yet.

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[Beagle]

Thanks for the information, but I'm missing the part about Dutch Navy vessels, or general foreign vessels hitting UK soil........

Rene

(ps I got a red ensign since it is the only one sold by Dutch chandleries)

<hr width=100% size=1>Never attempt to teach a pig to sing.
It is a waste of time and it annoys the pig.

 

[tome]

How did we get onto the subject of the Dutch and their massive ensigns and tiny courtesy flags again Rene?

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[AuntyRinum]

<(ps I got a red ensign since it is the only one sold by Dutch chandleries) >
That should give you a clue Beagle. There might be a reason for that.
BTW I think they are not Dutch Navy but Dutch Army.


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