capnsensible
Well-Known Member
Good post.
Electric winches - sobering reading
- Thread starter jlavery
- Start date
thinwater
Well-Known Member
Yolp: That was sloppy reading on my part re. windlass. My eyes saw "winch."
That said, I nearly lost a finger on a chain windlass when a wake threw me against the chain. The windlass was well guarded, it was a freak accident, and almost entirely my fault. I was kneeling on one knee, readying to engage the chain hook when the anchor was all the way up. My hand fell on top of the chain and my weight was hard on boath ands, so I could lift neither without my hand pressing harder on the chain or my face going into the chain. In a second I got my hand off the chain and my glove protected me. In the future I sat down or knelt on both knees in a more stable position.
Windlasses are dangerous too, but the extent depends on the design, and the manner of use generally makes them much safer. It took me less than a minute to find this video.
windlass injury
That said, I nearly lost a finger on a chain windlass when a wake threw me against the chain. The windlass was well guarded, it was a freak accident, and almost entirely my fault. I was kneeling on one knee, readying to engage the chain hook when the anchor was all the way up. My hand fell on top of the chain and my weight was hard on boath ands, so I could lift neither without my hand pressing harder on the chain or my face going into the chain. In a second I got my hand off the chain and my glove protected me. In the future I sat down or knelt on both knees in a more stable position.
Windlasses are dangerous too, but the extent depends on the design, and the manner of use generally makes them much safer. It took me less than a minute to find this video.
windlass injury
thinwater
Well-Known Member
If anyone has instruction or advice from power yacht winch manufacturer on safe installation of the winch, the switch location, and opperation, please post them. I have looked and not found anything meaningful. I've seen some dangerous switch locations and I'm sure there are safe and unsafe practices, differnt from those with a manual winch. They may not all be obvious.
Another problem is that you are supposed to hand tail for many operations (lifting a person), but that takes two hands plus one for the switch. This tempts the user to use the selftailer. In other cases, there isn't room for two people. Another option is a foot switch, but I question how that is going to work in waves and as you shift your weight to tail or add a turn. Of course, if hand grinding, you stop to add a turn, which would be the safe way with a power winch ... but would everybody?
Another problem is that you are supposed to hand tail for many operations (lifting a person), but that takes two hands plus one for the switch. This tempts the user to use the selftailer. In other cases, there isn't room for two people. Another option is a foot switch, but I question how that is going to work in waves and as you shift your weight to tail or add a turn. Of course, if hand grinding, you stop to add a turn, which would be the safe way with a power winch ... but would everybody?
thinwater
Well-Known Member
I do hope they are coded now. There was a time, when I was a boy, when garage door openers would open other doors of the same brand!
Elessar
Well-Known Member
Our two electric winches are new to us this year and they make me nervous.
Whilst the risk of fatal injury is very low, the risk of life changing injuries is reasonably foreseeable. Fingers don’t grow back.
They are operated by footswitches under a cover. The cover falls shut when your foot is removed. So accidental operation is unlikely.
The risk is operator error.
The highest risk is from helpful guests yet the only way to isolate the winches is in the engine bay (and it is left switched on) so they can operate them at will.
The whole thread has made me think.
For sailing boats an accessible and obvious emergency stop switch is what I would do.
In my case a more accessible isolator is the answer. They can be left off until needed (only for mooring in my case) and switched on only when I’m sure the “fingers never less than 12” from the winch” rule has been drummed into the intended operator and I have line of sight to the winches.
All in all, sobering reading and it must be worth thinking about your own use case.
Whilst the risk of fatal injury is very low, the risk of life changing injuries is reasonably foreseeable. Fingers don’t grow back.
They are operated by footswitches under a cover. The cover falls shut when your foot is removed. So accidental operation is unlikely.
The risk is operator error.
The highest risk is from helpful guests yet the only way to isolate the winches is in the engine bay (and it is left switched on) so they can operate them at will.
The whole thread has made me think.
For sailing boats an accessible and obvious emergency stop switch is what I would do.
In my case a more accessible isolator is the answer. They can be left off until needed (only for mooring in my case) and switched on only when I’m sure the “fingers never less than 12” from the winch” rule has been drummed into the intended operator and I have line of sight to the winches.
All in all, sobering reading and it must be worth thinking about your own use case.
rotrax
Well-Known Member
I understand your concern, but after ten seasons experience with a Lewmar 40 Power Winch it has been faultless. It has an internal cutout which stops it if overloaded. The isolating switch/reset button is not near the winch OR its control button.
Your description sounds more like the controls on our Muir vertical anchor windlass.
thinwater
Well-Known Member
Good evaluation.
A real guide would be even better, explaining how each operation is performed. "12 inches" is a fair start, I think that perhaps there is more to it that that.
- Never in ANY proximity to the incoming side. If turns need to be added or removed, turn the winch off and move your foot (a wave could make you pitch forward and involuntarily press the switch with your toe).
- Two hands for tailing when hoisting a person. No selftailer for hoisting (this is in several manuals and is also common sense for two reasons:
- If the switch sticks on you can remove the turns without putting your hands somewhere they should not be. This was the secondary cause of the Antigua incident.
- Ropes can jump out of selftailers. Probably not, but that's not good enough if someone is in the air. Running the rope though a partially closed jammer solves this, but not the prior problem.
- You won't feel a rope in a selftailer load up when something is stuck they way you will grinding. Yes, some have load sensing, but what is it set at? Pay very close attention to the sound to avoid breaking stuff.
Roberto
Well-Known Member
''Overload'' on an electric winch could mean exceeding 1000kg force (a normal electrified Harken winch -electric motor added to a manual winch- is given for 900kgf pull), plenty of time for limbs to be torn away, or ending into what one report for this thread accident states ''The skipper was unresponsive and tightly wound over and around the winch.''
ylop
Well-Known Member
Oh I have zero doubt that windlasses are dangerous (indeed prior to this report I’d have guessed chain+gypsy was much more dangerous and there was no way an electric winch could kill you other than blood loss (or perhaps fire)). But we’ve been using them for decades with both rope and chain and I don’t think the design is inherently better to avoid entanglement is it? (I don’t like foot switches and am a bit paranoid if anyone has to lean into the locker to clear the chain etc). I don’t know how well proper guards would work in reality.
ylop
Well-Known Member
Indeed it was no doubt a truly horrible death, but far more sailors die bored in care homes having someone else take them to the toilet and given the choice I think I’d rather go out mid adventure than after enduring that for years. If when frailty arrives electric winches enable me to sail for another few years rather than begin the slippery slope of senility then it certainly may be a tolerable risk.
ylop
Well-Known Member
I think the preliminary MAIB report is clear that the only way to isolate it was the battery master switch in the forward cabin. Now I wondered why that wasn’t found whilst waiting for rescue services, other than panic, but it may of course have been wired (or worried it was wired) in such a way that turning the power off would kill engine / vhf or other essential systems (even the navigation instruments might be needed to keep you safe and provide location to emergency services etc).
Assuming it was wired conventionally where a low current momentary switch is used to activate a large current relay/contactor then the fault is almost certainly in either the switch or the contactor. I doubt either truly have a 100% failsafe design, which is why when these things start to misbehave we ought to fix them rather than making do.
I am sure MAIB will be investigating to establish exactly what failed - but if it turns out to be the switch it doesn’t mean it can’t be the contactor next time and vice versa.
Elessar
Well-Known Member
Don’t disagree with any of that but bear in mind I only use the winches for mooring lines (it’s a mobo) so my use case is very different.
Considering known accidents is a good way to do the risk assessment for your use case and allow you to consider appropriate.mitigations. That’s why MAIB publications are so good.
penberth3
Well-Known Member
You're assuming the remaining crew had a certain level of knowledge of electric circuits, and the layout of systems in that particular vessel. It's quite possible they hadn't got a clue?
SaltIre
Well-Known Member
ylop
Well-Known Member
I wasn't really assuming anything - I was trying to understand why in the many minutes waiting for a lifeboat none of the three crew had isolated the power. Initially I assumed it was just panic or not knowing where but then I realised that there was a possible explanation too. If they didn't know where the batteries were then they weren't really crew, they were passengers! I'm sure the full MAIB report will consider whatever briefing they were given - perhaps that is the simplest thing we can all learn from this - make sure someone else on board knows where your battery isolators are, and if there are circumstances where turning them off a master switch would make a bad situation worse!
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thinwater
Well-Known Member
Exactly.
On my last boat the isolator was in a cabinet devoid of any equipment anyone would ever access except for maintenance. The switch was only used every few years, because even at the dock it was on. Even though we cruised the boat for years, I doubt any of my family would have known where it was under pressure. Every other breaker, yes, but not that one.
Most crew are, in a sense, passengers. They don't know the boat inside out. And then there is single handing; if the emergency switch is not within reach it doesn't exist.
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I've seen good manuals for the use of a manual winch. I would like to see one for powered winches. Even more necessary. They can be safe with training. This is something new, and even if we think we understand it, it is ALWAYS good to have training that is based not only on proper use, but that also considers all of the mistakes that have been made. They aren't all obvious, or at least they bear repeating. It's always better to learn from the mistakes of others than to learn those lessons yourself.
rotrax
Well-Known Member
Our powered Lewmar 40 self tailer handles all sail work bar hoisting-there are mast manual winched for that.
It is mounted horizontal and eight lines are pulled by it. To release them it has a clutch for each line and a substantial cleat which serves all eight lines. Easy to trim by pulling the sheet with the winch or taking it off the tailer/drum and slipping it using the cleat and clutch.
As it is horizontal, the tailed line falls to the rear cockpit floor due to its own weight. It has built in bins for the lines, so they are kept tidy. The recently added Code Zero has a bag First Mate made for the sheet and furling line clipped on the Starboard side safety rail. Port side sheet goes in the OE bin.
One button controls it for pulling. The cutout switch is within two metres of the winch and control button, on the electrical panel just inside the pilothouse door..
It is so simple to use - just like a manual winch without the need to wind - a manual for using it is not really neccessary. Once the line is on the drum and over the self tailer, hands and body parts are not at risk. Operation is one fingertip only.
It is undoubtedly the easiest sail control system I have ever used. Jib is self tacking with a Hoyt Boom system.
The only critique after ten seasons with the boat is it twists the lines and I must be dilligent untwisting them after winching. But a manual winch would twist them too.
RunAgroundHard
Well-Known Member
Some folks express utter contempt for "HSE" on here, not reading the manual raises its head from time to time and risk assessment is often claimed to be an intrusion by the nanny state and claimed to be less effective than common sense. These attitudes today are addressed within organisations using psychological safety methods to help people understand risk management as a positive contributor and enabler to the experience, as opposed to a blocker.
I am reminded of the lady that lost her hand and had the other severely damaged when hoisting her husband up the past, lessons are available for that. In my experience, lessons learned, is one of the most ineffective ways of controlling risk, which is why we note similar incidents are repeated.
https://www.practical-sailor.com/safety-seamanship/electric-winch-and-windlass-safety
Developing a mindset where chronic unease is a routine thought process around an activity, is difficult, and probably is getting harder in a modern technological controlled market were risks are mostly controlled through design and as such are experienced less than in the past. As the Practical Sailor article states Coulda, Woulda, Shoulda is all very well on hindsight.
Instead, when thinking about a task such as gybing, tacking, raising the anchor, sheeting in, freeing off et cetera, try and think ahead of the possible outcomes if a failure occurs. Especially think of folks body position and line of fire from any energy source whether stored or dynamic. Are they in the line of fire, can the task be done away from the line of fire, how to isolate the energy, how to step back and be safe if the task goes wrong. For example, I often see folks winching manual winches standing in front of a turning block, if that block failed, their leg is going to get mashed at best, possibly with los of their wedding tackle.
I guess my point is, building in safety, providing manuals, training and everything that goes with that is all very well, and it works, but still incidents happen. So, when your doing something, develop and internal mindset that is curious about what ifs, and have a plan to deal with that what if. Modern safety in industry is now focused on "fail safe", because accidents and incidents are inevitable, so think how do you or your crew "fail safe" when doing something such that if an incident happens, the chance of injury and death are not likely. The opposite of "fail safe" is "fail lucky". thinking about "fail safe" is a form of risk assessment that doesn't require the nanny state, just a bit of mental effort, that will soon developed a cognitive bias that is very effective at controlling risk.
Posts on the mast hoisting incident.
Lewmar investigates hand-severing incident - Yachting Monthly
ELECTRIC WINCH: Weapon of Mass Destruction? - Wave Train
I am reminded of the lady that lost her hand and had the other severely damaged when hoisting her husband up the past, lessons are available for that. In my experience, lessons learned, is one of the most ineffective ways of controlling risk, which is why we note similar incidents are repeated.
https://www.practical-sailor.com/safety-seamanship/electric-winch-and-windlass-safety
Developing a mindset where chronic unease is a routine thought process around an activity, is difficult, and probably is getting harder in a modern technological controlled market were risks are mostly controlled through design and as such are experienced less than in the past. As the Practical Sailor article states Coulda, Woulda, Shoulda is all very well on hindsight.
Instead, when thinking about a task such as gybing, tacking, raising the anchor, sheeting in, freeing off et cetera, try and think ahead of the possible outcomes if a failure occurs. Especially think of folks body position and line of fire from any energy source whether stored or dynamic. Are they in the line of fire, can the task be done away from the line of fire, how to isolate the energy, how to step back and be safe if the task goes wrong. For example, I often see folks winching manual winches standing in front of a turning block, if that block failed, their leg is going to get mashed at best, possibly with los of their wedding tackle.
I guess my point is, building in safety, providing manuals, training and everything that goes with that is all very well, and it works, but still incidents happen. So, when your doing something, develop and internal mindset that is curious about what ifs, and have a plan to deal with that what if. Modern safety in industry is now focused on "fail safe", because accidents and incidents are inevitable, so think how do you or your crew "fail safe" when doing something such that if an incident happens, the chance of injury and death are not likely. The opposite of "fail safe" is "fail lucky". thinking about "fail safe" is a form of risk assessment that doesn't require the nanny state, just a bit of mental effort, that will soon developed a cognitive bias that is very effective at controlling risk.
Posts on the mast hoisting incident.
Lewmar investigates hand-severing incident - Yachting Monthly
ELECTRIC WINCH: Weapon of Mass Destruction? - Wave Train
penberth3
Well-Known Member
Fortunately it's a tiny minority but still too many that express "contempt" for Safety.
After your interesting spiel what stands out in the last quote is the comment "...I assumed if you released the button the winch would stop". As you explain very well, "what happens if it doesn't?" is what people should be asking themselves.
An analogy is a clutch cable breaking on a car, how do you stop it? Not difficult, people generally do more driving than sailing and things like that should be instinctive.
thinwater
Well-Known Member
Yes.
I was driving my Mom around in her car a few years ago. The engine suddenly when WOT. This had happened to her before and she hit something (little damamge). She didn't warn me. I turned the ignition off. She ask "how did you think of that so quickly?"
I then jumped out, opened the bonnet, and saw that a mechanic had positioned a hose incorrectly near the throttle body, blocking the throttle return spring. I adjusted that and we drove home. I added a few cable ties and it was done.
So many things to remember. I think a warning sticker near the power winch could help remind us they can bite, and to THINK.