Electric winches - sobering reading

Here is the article. More to information come, I'm sure.

A number of apparent contributing causes, including installation geometry, operation, and an electrical defect. Not much information.

Electric winch accident

You may be familiar with a winch accident in Antiga a few years ago that cost a few hands. Does anyone know of others?
 
Sounds horrible. I guess the moral of the story is keep hands well clear of electric winches. I just can not picture victim being wound around the winch but I can imagine injuries leading to death. ol'will
 
Chiara’s slave said:
Someone else wields the knife in those situations. If you’re solo, I don’t know. Or don’t want to say.
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I sail solo 95% of the time and having a knife to hand has saved my bacon more than once.
Two occasions in particular come to mind: broaching while the kite was up and a MOB situation.
Either could have had 'an unfortunate outcome'.
 
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Chiara’s slave said:
Surely you just cut the loaded line?
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Several problems ...
  • The line hass pressure on it from the wraps and the hand that is wond in, so it probably won't just release.
  • The victim is not going to be able to do this. Too much pain, no ability to reach anywhere, and they are still being wound in, which they are fighting.
  • The helper is also in a panic. Second, the helper has to cut a moving line. Possible to get drawn in as well. In most cases, on a little of the load side is exposed or reachable from one spot. Very difficult.
The problem with an emergency stop switch is that in at least one case, it was the solenoid that stuck on. You would actually need a second solenoid. This is different from the emergency spot switch that is overriding a simple on-off switch. As far as I know, all yacht winches use momentary contact start switches that do NOT latch.

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The problem is, IMO, a general lack of deep understanding of just how dangerous and unguarded winch is. This is not something that is permitted in most industrial settings, let alone in a recreational setting. Training. Big red signs. Emergency stop buttons (which generally only help after things are very wrong). This is going to keep happening. But they are so easy to sell.

The solution seems like some sort of guarding. And real training and real warning signs.
 
thinwater said:
The problem is, IMO, a general lack of deep understanding of just how dangerous and unguarded winch is.
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Whilst I have heard of horrible injuries from windlasses I don’t think I’ve heard of anyone being killed.
thinwater said:
This is not something that is permitted in most industrial settings, let alone in a recreational setting. Training. Big red signs. Emergency stop buttons (which generally only help after things are very wrong). This is going to keep happening. But they are so easy to sell.
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In this case the root cause seems to be an issue none of that would necessarily have saved - there was a faulty switch and the fault was known and ignored. Faults on safety critical systems go known and ignored on large commercial vessel until port safety inspections impound the vessel - you will never stop that sort of complacency to defects on leisure vessels.
 
ylop said:
Whilst I have heard of horrible injuries from windlasses I don’t think I’ve heard of anyone being killed.

In this case the root cause seems to be an issue none of that would necessarily have saved - there was a faulty switch and the fault was known and ignored. Faults on safety critical systems go known and ignored on large commercial vessel until port safety inspections impound the vessel - you will never stop that sort of complacency to defects on leisure vessels.
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1. This thread was started about a fatal injury.

2. The root causes run far deeper than a bad switch.
a. No guard. This is different than a manual winch. There is no standard but there should be. This would not be acceptable in a place of work.
b. Location of the winch force the victim to stand in a dangerous position while pushing the button. Probably both the victim and the no account boat yard that installed it.

only AFTER a and b do these matter:

c. Unknown electrical maintenance or installation error.
d. No emergency stop button.
 
thinwater said:
1. This thread was started about a fatal injury.
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Not from a windlass though. Whilst electric winches are relatively new on leisure boats - windlasses are not. Therefore if they are as inherently dangerous as you suggest it is surprising there are not more fatalities?
thinwater said:
2. The root causes run far deeper than a bad switch.
a. No guard. This is different than a manual winch. There is no standard but there should be. This would not be acceptable in a place of work.
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I have no idea what a guard on a boat winch would look like - but winches are used on commercial vessels and fishing vessels routinely without guards (and do result in injury / fatality but are usually much larger). Do you have pictures of a guarded winch installation?
thinwater said:
b. Location of the winch force the victim to stand in a dangerous position while pushing the button. Probably both the victim and the no account boat yard that installed it.
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Well there may also be *some* blame on the winch provider if they don’t specify how to install it safely.
thinwater said:
only AFTER a and b do these matter:

c. Unknown electrical maintenance or installation error.
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I think you should read the report again. This wasn’t a case of an unexpected freak component failure which might have been mitigated from better preventative maintenance this was a recurring fault with the winch where it would sometimes stick on. It should have been obvious to a prudent sailor that it needed urgent attention and taken out of use in the meantime as the risk of serious rig damage was high even if the human risk was less obvious.
thinwater said:
d. No emergency stop button.
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And seemingly nobody else on the crew knowing where the battery isolator was.
 
Wightlink’s winches for their mooring lines are unguarded. They’re on the car deck in plain sight. Exactly like this yacht, and many others, including the ones I’ve used.

I have already said I don’t think self rescue with a knife is likely. But cutting the loaded line is obviously the first sctioon anyone could take, even though the line may not release, and as the winch is still turning, it might all keep getting worse. But it’s something.
 
Exposed winches and windlasses are clearly hazards capable of inflicting serious injury or death when in use. The protection with such hazards comes from training, the design of the control system and integrity of its component parts. The training of the crew looks like it was lacking or inadequate (how many cruising yachts fall into this category?).

Its not clear to me from the report whether the design of the controls was at fault or the failure of components. An intermittent defect does not provide enough detail and is a crucial piece of info. Is my solenoid-controlled with remote switches windlass at risk of springing into life unasked? Not knowing which part of the system failed (winch, remote switch, solenoid, general wiring) is the important bit that's missing.

I leave my anchor and chain rigged over the (horizontal) windlass when anchored (using a bridle) or when the anchor is up and stowed. Until now I never really considered the risk that the system could start with the remote control disconnected (due to a solenoid fault?) and wind the stemhead fitting off. I have an isolation switch but it remains on when cruising.
 
In the original case here, there was an "intermittent fault". That that made it dangerous to use should have been obvious. In any sort of industrial situation, that winch would have been isolated until it was repaired.
I always wonder with radio controlled windlasses, whether your control could activate a neighbouring boat's windlass. I do realise that a range of different frequencies are used, but still....
My windlass is operated using a manual switch on a curly cable, so not susceptible, but I now have a Chinaspacher heater, which can be controlled by a remote switch. My boat is at present in a boatyard with lots of boats close by. Is there is now the possibility that my heater could be switched on by someone with a similar heater in a neighbouring boat?
 
Supertramp said:
Not knowing which part of the system failed (winch, remote switch, solenoid, general wiring) is the important bit that's missing.
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How does it change your risk if you know which problem caused THIS issue? For a motor to get stuck “on” either the switch is fault or the relay/solenoid/contactor it operates - a fault in the motor or its wiring can’t make the more turn if the power has been isolated.
NormanS said:
Is there is now the possibility that my heater could be switched on by someone with a similar heater in a neighbouring boat?
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You will recall when you set up the heater carrying out steps to pair your remote with your controller. I guess it’s possible that there are a finite number of unique controller codes and another with the same code might be close enough but unless the design was ridiculously bad it seems very unlikely.
NormanS said:
That that made it dangerous to use should have been obvious. In any sort of industrial situation, that winch would have been isolated until it was repaired.
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WOULD might be going too far there - any responsible employer would, but not all industrial situations have that type of safety culture.
 
NormanS said:
In the original case here, there was an "intermittent fault". That that made it dangerous to use should have been obvious. In any sort of industrial situation, that winch would have been isolated until it was repaired.
I always wonder with radio controlled windlasses, whether your control could activate a neighbouring boat's windlass. I do realise that a range of different frequencies are used, but still....
My windlass is operated using a manual switch on a curly cable, so not susceptible, but I now have a Chinaspacher heater, which can be controlled by a remote switch. My boat is at present in a boatyard with lots of boats close by. Is there is now the possibility that my heater could be switched on by someone with a similar heater in a neighbouring boat?
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It would be good if there was a crypto component between transmitter and receiver like with car locks (which can require re-synchronisation)...
 
Roberto said:
I haven t sailed on many boats with electric winches, though I have seen none of them with a big red/yellow push botton ''Emergency stop'' near to the operating area.
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The boat I have experienced them on did have the emergency shut off, in the companionway, within a metre of both winches. The boat was coded, and owned by a YM examiner, he is quite keen on his safety measures. We might not all pursue all of them to that extent, but it was interesting and informative to see what could be done.
 
ylop said:
How does it change your risk if you know which problem caused THIS issue? For a motor to get stuck “on” either the switch is fault or the relay/solenoid/contactor it operates - a fault in the motor or its wiring can’t make the more turn if the power has been isolated.
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I think understanding the root cause is exactly the point. Otherwise we assume negligible risk of failure in our systems and put the cause down to some freak event that could never happen to us.

Was there an emergency stop, did the crew know about it and was it pushed? No reference to this, no sign in the photo.

If the winch had a wiring fault it could stop whilst still live and connected, restarting when the connection remade. Or it might have a cutout under high load, restarting on reduced load.

And if the solenoid control switch system was able to "fail live" then that needs understood.

Its a preliminary report so maybe the full report will check the details thoroughly. My money is on a faulty switch unit and no nearby emergency stop.

Norman - I too have the wrinkly cable remote for the anchor winch. I have kept it as it can be disconnected easily. I have always been wary of foot operated (or wireless remote) windlass controls because I can see the risk of inadvertent switching.
 
A very sad accident, though one where ignoring a known fault is a material factor.
But we should keep this in perspective. There is no evidence that electric winches or windlasses are even in the top 10 of boating risks.
Much bigger causes of fatality include mainsheets in the cockpit, when there are solutions to avoid this - sheet ahead of cockpit or on an arch, for example.
Plus dinghy trips from pub and even peeing over the side probably account for more fatalities.
And of course driving to the boat probably the most dangerous.

So yes treat electric winches and windlasses with respect (eg ours always off at breaker when grandchildren on board, anything round neck like marina card tucked away and on safety strap, no bare feet near windlas etc) but lets not get out of proportion.
 
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dunedin said:
A very sad accident, though one where ignoring a known fault is a material factor.
But we should keep this in perspective. There is no evidence that electric winches or windlasses are even in the top 10 of boating risks.
Much bigger causes of fatality include mainsheets in the cockpit, when there are solutions to avoid this - sheet ahead of cockpit or on an arch, for example.
Plus dinghy trips from pub and even peeing over the side probably account for more fatalities.
And of course driving to the boat probably the most dangerous.

So yes treat electric winches and windlasses with respect (eg ours always off at breaker when grandchildren on board, anything round neck like marina card tucked away and on safety strap, no bare feet near windlas etc) but lets not get out of proportion.
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Well put, most accidents of any sort are usually the culmination and interaction of human error and seemingly trivial decisions.
 
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