Eberspacher D3LC vs Chinese brand vs Planar Russian ( Latvian)

[ChromeDome]

2015:
EU penalised automotive supplier Eberspächer for cartel.

The automotive supplier Eberspächer must pay a cartel fine of 68 million euros. The exhaust and air conditioning specialist, a family business from Esslingen, had colluded with its Bavarian competitor Webasto for more than ten years not to compete with each other, the EU Commission in Brussels announced on Wednesday.

Both companies had coordinated their prices for parking heaters and auxiliary heaters and thus kept them artificially high. The companies also divided up their customers among themselves. According to the EU authorities, they exchanged their annual price lists when selling to dealers and equalised their discounts for dealers.

In March, the authorities seized evidence during an unannounced visit. Eberspächer stated that the company had fully supported the antitrust investigation from the outset. In addition, all necessary steps had been taken to prevent future antitrust violations: "The compliance programme introduced several years ago has been significantly expanded and all sales employees have been trained in appropriate conduct within the framework of competition law regulations."

Agreements to the detriment of companies and consumers are prohibited in the EU. According to the EU Commission, the offence in this case was particularly serious because Eberspächer and Webasto are the only manufacturers of parking heaters in Europe. Parking heaters heat parked cars or lorries, while auxiliary heaters support the heating of running engines. EU Competition Commissioner Margrethe Vestager said: "This cheating was at the expense of a large part of the European automotive industry and ultimately car and lorry buyers." The collusion lasted from 2001 to 2011.

Webasto was completely exempted from the fine because the company had informed the EU Commission about the cartel. Otherwise, a fine of 222 million euros would have been imposed.

Maybe some still dislike the German companies or believe their current, higher, prices aren't fully justified. Probably better than the knockoffs, but that many times better??

 

[DownWest]

Dislike might stem from more recent cooking of the emmissions on cars?

Cors, if you copy an idea and have very low production costs and ignore copyright. Got to be cheaper?

 

[ChromeDome]

Cors, if you copy an idea and have very low production costs and ignore copyright. Got to be cheaper?

Skip research & development, copy design but use less material (e.g. the plastic housing in Chinese heaters is thin and brittle). Use reused x 2 cardboard packaging, drop documentation, ignore support, lie in your marketing and cheat on certifications.

Comply with rules and legislation for employees' rights, sustainability etc. - if any.

 

[owen-cox]

You may well be correct, but I understood that blatant advertising was frowned on in the forum.

It wasnt blatant advertising it was a fact. Prove otherwise if you like?

 

[owen-cox]

Available info online has it that

"Autoterm Europe, one of the brands of the Russian company Advers"

supported by details on
Теплостар. Автономка. ПЖД. Предпусковой подогреватель двигателя, автоподогреватели, воздушные отопители, автомобильные подогреватели. - Главная страница

which a visit to the site will confirm.

Apart from that I don't see a link between location of production, reseller reliability and product quality.

Speculations about supporting one or the other part of the world when spending your money really can make your life complicated, if you want to walk the talk. How many of the products you buy do know the full organisation and monetary movements behind?

This is old information. Production is now in europe and Azerbaijan. It was quickly moved as soo. As the war broke out. I just visited the plant in Azerbaijan and they have a very comprehensive factory there including electronic board manufacturing capability. So officially they have official origin in latvia or Azerbaijan. Directors of Autoterm were born in Ukraine and of course do not support the war. They had to leave Russia or be called up to fight. They have also donated heaters to Ukraine and the distributor in Ukraine is still selling the heaters there a lot of which go towards the war effort.

 

[14K478]

I am certainly not anti-China or Chinese people or Chinese products. I’ve worked for a Chinese company since December 1996 (well, I left for three years but they lured me back!) but I have just decided in favour of the Latvian/Azerbaijani/Ukrainian product.

There are Chinese products which are of superb quality.

I’ve had an excellent Chinese titanium mountain bike since 1999 but I bought it in Beijing and could take local advice. It’s made by the OEM for one of the top US brands and sold domestically under their own label (“Hanglun” - Seagull), I could not have known that if I hadn’t been living there at the time with friends whose advice I could take.

My decision in favour of Planar was made on the advice of Paul Rainbow of these pages whom I know and trust. It’s partly a question of consistency of product and partly a question of dealer and installer networks.

 

[ChromeDome]

@owen-cox

Thanks for the clarification.

Facts count. The hard thing can be to keep up with facts in a fast-changing world. Sometimes big interests don't really want the facts to be known, you know.

 

[Rappey]

Any evidence to support this ?

Thats a tricky one. I recently read a pdf from the latvian web site which stated they are owned by Advers, the russian parent company. It was something like a company statement.
From video and pics it would seem the latvian "factory" is not manufacturing but assembling the delivered parts. Another article called it 3rd country reselling, to circumvent any current/future russian sanctions.
Im sure the heaters are of very good quality. The moral dilema is do you buy products where the profits go to a russian company when so many other companies have ceased all trading with russia ?

 

[rotrax]

Dislike might stem from more recent cooking of the emmissions on cars?

Cors, if you copy an idea and have very low production costs and ignore copyright. Got to be cheaper?

Copyright exists for printed matter, has little to do with mechanical devices per se.
Patents, Registered Designs and Trademarks are totally different things.
As is the case for the Diesel Heaters under question, Racor fuel filters and Volvo type stern tube seals, the Patents, nominaly 20 years, have long expired.
The technology is free for anyone to use.

 

[bergie]

When dealing via eBay or Amazon they are obliged to respond etc., it just takes ages and usually ends up with a few emails with no concrete results.

Our boat came with a genuine Webasto that ran for a winter, then died with a shorted glow plug. For this model, a spare would've cost ~300€ with a month of shipping time.

Amazon delivered a Chinese heater for 120€ the next day. Was easy to swap the devices reusing all existing piping.

This heater again ran for a full winter (more or less 24/7 usage), then died in the spring with some obscure fan fault. The vendor (after some "please try the fix in this YouTube video" exchanges), sent us a new replacement unit free of charge.

Since we winter sail (and anchor), we keep a second Chinese unit as a spare. As we learned last time, swapping them takes maybe 20min.

Based on our experiences, a lot of boat neighbours have since installed similar Chinese heaters, all without issues (except some self-inflicted installation mistakes).

 

[Nina Lucia]

Our boat came with a genuine Webasto that ran for a winter, then died with a shorted glow plug. For this model, a spare would've cost ~300€ with a month of shipping time.

Amazon delivered a Chinese heater for 120€ the next day. Was easy to swap the devices reusing all existing piping.

This heater again ran for a full winter (more or less 24/7 usage), then died in the spring with some obscure fan fault. The vendor (after some "please try the fix in this YouTube video" exchanges), sent us a new replacement unit free of charge.

Since we winter sail (and anchor), we keep a second Chinese unit as a spare. As we learned last time, swapping them takes maybe 20min.

Based on our experiences, a lot of boat neighbours have since installed similar Chinese heaters, all without issues (except some self-inflicted installation mistakes).

Which Chinese heater did you buy? We are looking to give a try to HCalory 404613451852

 

[bergie]

Which Chinese heater did you buy? We are looking to give a try to HCalory 404613451852

We've been buying the Vevor brand ones.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Which Chinese heater did you buy? We are looking to give a try to HCalory 404613451852

5kw to 8kw my eye. 2kw if you're lucky.

 

[DownWest]

5kw to 8kw my eye. 2kw if you're lucky.

Genuine question. Do you buy these units and test them, to see what the opposition is offering? Or is it chat in the business?

 

[PaulRainbow]

Genuine question. Do you buy these units and test them, to see what the opposition is offering? Or is it chat in the buisiness?

I wouldn't buy one to test as i would never fit one.

But, to kind of answer your question, take a look at the specs. It's impossible to generate that much heat from a heater of that size and quoted fuel consumption figures.

 

[NormanS]

5kw to 8kw my eye. 2kw if you're lucky.

Is your statement about the particular model quoted, or are you referring to all heaters with a Chinese origin?

 

[fredrussell]

Is your statement about the particular model quoted, or are you referring to all heaters with a Chinese origin?

My friend has measured the output of most of the Chinaspachers he has bought - he’s kind of obsessed with them! The 5kw/8kw are just over 4kw output, and the smaller (physically) 2kw ones actually are 2kw output. A lot of the ones sold as 2kw are actually just one of the larger (physically) higher output ones throttled back by the ecu and fuel pump.
It's hardly surprising that the actual output of the 5-8kw ones is 4kw as that is exactly the output of the Eberspacher heater they copied!

 

[Elessar]

I have fitted dozens of Chinese now and had no problems and there is a 30,000 strong community of users on FB with no serious problems reported (ie fires etc that other brands like to talk about)

I have two chinese on my own boat in continuous winter use for 5 years now - to date one has needed a new temp sensor - DIY fit in 2 minutes with no tools (plug in and held by sting clip) and cost £4 and the other has needed two of the same and a new digital controller (again it just plugs in and was a £12 spare)

In the past they used to need glow plugs quite often but I've not had to do a replacement on those in 5 years and again they are a few pounds each unlike the name brands that are £60-75

So I'd say save hundreds of pounds and but Chinese. Maybe order a few spares - a couple of overheat sensors, a spare glow plug and that should do it - about £20 extra spend and you may never need them. I would also buy a genuine Webasto or Eber exhaust pipe from Butler Technic etc as these are rather batter built than the Chinese which can start to unravel over time.

Watch an online guide to fitting rather than try to look at the Chinese instructions, and sit in a warm boat with an extra £600 in your pocket and the knowledge that if anything goes seriously wrong you can simply replace the entire unit (leaving all the plumbing and exhaust etc in place) in about 15 minutes (4 bolts and 4 hose connections to swap from one to the other) for £100 whilst with the brand names you (especially Eber) you have to call in a man with a special device to read error codes and even with something simple like running out of fuel after a few attempts at start they lock out and you need the man in to unlock at £90 an hour.

I know Vyv Cox's son imports Planar to the UK so he is very fond of those but they have become almost as expensive as Webasto and don't have the same worldwide back up yet and are a little less user friendly in the controls so I can't see the advantage that they used to have when £400. On top of which if you buy Webasto from say LandRover as a spare (they are used to pre-heat in cold climes) then you can get them at around £500 but that is only for the wet radiator version not the blown air.

All in all the Chinese work well, are cheap (why not buy two to start with and you have spares) and safe and thousands of users in the UK have had good experiences over years and tens of thousands in the US where they were sold for the last 15 years in Walmart without problems (with a Walmart branding I think)

I agree with all of this.
I had two in this boat and when I coded it I was made to remove them due to the lack of a CE mark.
Annoying.

 

[owen-cox]

I agree with all of this.
I had two in this boat and when I coded it I was made to remove them due to the lack of a CE mark.
Annoying.

On the other hand would you use lifejackets that were a 1/4 of the price of a fully certified branded lifejacket just because it was cheap?

 

[PaulRainbow]

Is your statement about the particular model quoted, or are you referring to all heaters with a Chinese origin?

It was to the post i was quoting.